The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 33

M^r King. N. Hamps.h.i.+re has probably more than 120,000 Inhab^{ts} and has an extensive Country of tolerable fertility. Its inhab^{ts} therefore may be expected to increase fast. He remarked that the four Eastern States, having 800,000 souls, have 1/3 fewer representatives than the four Southern States, having not more than 700,000 souls, rating the blacks as 5 for 3. The Eastern people will advert to these circ.u.mstances, and be dissatisfied. He believed them to be very desirous of uniting with their Southern brethren, but did not think it prudent to rely so far on that disposition as to subject them to any gross inequality. He was fully convinced that the question concerning a difference of interests did not lie where it had hitherto been discussed, between the great & small States; but between the Southern & Eastern. For this reason he had been ready to yield something in the proportion of representatives for the security of the Southern. No principle would justify the giving them a majority. They were brought as near an equality as was possible. He was not averse to giving them a still greater security, but did not see how it could be done.

Gen^l Pinkney. The Report before it was committed was more favorable to the S. States than as it now stands. If they are to form so considerable a minority, and the regulation of trade is to be given to the Gen^l Government, they will be nothing more than overseers for the Northern States. He did not expect the S. States to be raised to a majority of representatives, but wished them to have something like an equality. At present by the alterations of the Com^e in favor of the N. States they are removed farther from it than they were before. One member indeed had been added to Virg^a which he was glad of as he considered her as a Southern State. He was glad also that the members of Georgia were increased.

M^r Williamson was not for reducing N. Hamps.h.i.+re from 3 to 2, but for reducing some others. The South^n Interest must be extremely endangered by the present arrangement. The North^n States are to have a majority in the first instance and the means of perpetuating it.

M^r Dayton observed that the line between North^n & Southern interest had been improperly drawn; that P^a was the dividing State, there being six on each side of her.

Gen^l Pinkney urged the reduction, dwelt on the superior wealth of the Southern States, and insisted on its having its due weight in the Government.

M^r Gov^r Morris regretted the turn of the debate. The States he found had many Representatives on the floor. Few he fears were to be deemed the Representatives of America. He thought the Southern States have by the report more than their share of representation. Property ought to have its weight, but not all the weight. If the South^n States are to supply money. The North^n States are to spill their blood. Besides, the probable Revenue to be expected from the S. States has been greatly overrated. He was ag^{st} reducing N. Hamps.h.i.+re.

M^r Randolph was opposed to a reduction of N. Hamps.h.i.+re, not because she had a full t.i.tle to three members; but because it was in his contemplation 1. to make it the duty instead of leaving it in the discretion of the Legislature to regulate the representation by a periodical census. 2. to require more than a bare majority of votes in the Legislature in certain cases & particularly in commercial cases.

On the question for reducing N. Hamps.h.i.+re from 3 to 2 Represent^s it pa.s.sed in the negative

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.[128]

[128] In printed Journal. N. C. no. Geo. ay. Note in Madison's hand.

Gen^l Pinkney and M^r Alex^r Martin moved that 6 Rep^s instead of 5 be allowed to N. Carolina.

On the Question, it pa.s.sed in the negative

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinkney & M^r Butler made the same motion in favor of S. Carolina

On the Question it pa.s.sed in the negative

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinckney & M^r Houston moved that Georgia be allowed 4 instead of 3 Rep^s urging the unexampled celerity of its population. On the Question, it pa.s.sed in the Negative

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison, moved that the number allowed to each State be doubled. A _majority_ of a _Quorum_ of _65_ members, was too small a number to represent the whole inhabitants of the U. States; They would not possess enough of the confidence of the people, and w^d be too spa.r.s.ely taken from the people, to bring with them all the local information which would be frequently wanted. Double the number will not be too great, even with the future additions from New States. The additional expence was too inconsiderable to be regarded in so important a case. And as far as the augmentation might be unpopular on that score, the objection was overbalanced by its effect on the hopes of a greater number of the popular candidates.

M^r Elseworth urged the objection of expence, & that the greater the number, the more slowly would the business proceed; and the less probably be decided as it ought, at last. He thought the number of Representatives too great in most of the State Legislatures; and that a large number was less necessary in the Gen^l Legislature than in those of the States, as its business would relate to a few great national Objects only.

M^r Sherman would have preferred 50 to 65. The great distance they will have to travel will render their attendance precarious and will make it difficult to prevail on a sufficient number of fit men to undertake the service. He observed that the expected increase from new States also deserved consideration.

M^r Gerry was for increasing the number beyond 65. The larger the number, the less the danger of their being corrupted. The people are accustomed to & fond of a numerous representation, and will consider their rights as better secured by it. The danger of excess in the number may be guarded ag^{st} by fixing a point within which the number shall always be kept.

Col. Mason admitted that the objection drawn from the consideration of expence, had weight both in itself, and as the people might be affected by it. But he thought it outweighed by the objections ag^{st} the smallness of the number. 38, will he supposes, as being a majority of 65. form a quorum. 20 will be a majority of 38. This was certainly too small a number to make laws for America. They would neither bring with them all the necessary information relative to various local interests, nor possess the necessary confidence of the people. After doubling the number, the laws might still be made by so few as almost to be objectionable on that account.

M^r Read was in favor of the Motion. Two of the States (Del. & R. I.) would have but a single member if the aggregate number should remain at 65. and in case of accident to either of these one State w^d have no representative present to give explanations or informations of its interests or wishes. The people would not place their confidence in so small a number. He hoped the objects of the Gen^l Gov^t would be much more numerous than seemed to be expected by some gentlemen, and that they would become more & more so. As to New States the highest number of Rep^s for the whole might be limited, and all danger of excess thereby prevented.

M^r Rutlidge opposed the motion. The Representatives were too numerous in all the States. The full number allotted to the States may be expected to attend, & the lowest possible quorum sh^d not therefore be considered. The interests of their Const.i.tuents will urge their attendance too strongly for it to be omitted: and he supposed the Gen^l Legislature would not sit more than 6 or 8 weeks in the year.

On the Question for doubling the number, it pa.s.sed in the negative

Mas^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question for agreeing to the apportionment of Rep^s as amended by the last committee, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Broom gave notice to the House that he had concurred with a reserve to himself of an intention to claim for his State an equal voice in the 2^d branch; which he thought could not be denied after this concession of the small States as to the first branch.

M^r Randolph moved as an amendment to the report of the Comm^e of five "that in order to ascertain the alterations in the population & wealth of the several States the Legislature should be required to cause a census, and estimate to be taken within one year after its first meeting; and every ---- years thereafter, and that the Legisl^{re} arrange the Representation accordingly."

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed it as fettering the Legislature too much.

Advantage may be taken of it in time of war or the apprehension of it, by new States to extort particular favors. If the mode was to be fixed for taking a Census, it might certainly be extremely inconvenient: if unfixt the Legislature may use such a mode as will defeat the object: and perpetuate the inequality. He was always ag^{st} such shackles on the Legisl^{re}. They had been found very pernicious in most of the State Const.i.tutions. He dwelt much on the danger of throwing such a preponderancy into the Western Scale, suggesting that in time the Western people w^d outnumber the Atlantic States. He wished therefore to put it in the power of the latter to keep a majority of votes in their own hands. It was objected he said that if the Legisl^{re} are left at liberty, they will never readjust the Representation. He admitted that this was possible; but he did not think it probable unless the reasons ag^{st} a revision of it were very urgent & in this case, it ought not to be done.

It was moved to postpone the proposition of M^r Randolph in order to take up the following, viz. "that the Committee of Eleven, to whom was referred the report of the Committee of five on the subject of Representation, be requested to furnish the Convention with the principles on which they grounded the Report," which was disagreed to; S. C. alone voting in the affirmative.

Adjourned

WEDNESDAY JULY 11. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Randolph's motion requiring the Legisl^{re} to take a periodical census for the purpose of redressing inequalities in the Representation was resumed.

M^r Sherman was ag^{st}. Shackling the Legislature too much. We ought to choose wise & good men, and then confide in them.

M^r Mason. The greater the difficulty we find in fixing a proper rule of Representation, the more unwilling ought we to be, to throw the task from ourselves on the Gen^l Legisl^{re}. He did not object to the conjectural ratio which was to prevail in the outset; but considered a Revision from time to time according to some permanent & precise standard as essential to y^e fair representation required in the 1^{st} branch. According to the present population of America, the North^n part of it had a right to preponderate, and he could not deny it. But he wished it not to preponderate hereafter when the reason no longer continued. From the nature of man we may be sure that those who have power in their hands will not give it up while they can retain it. On the contrary we know that they will always when they can rather increase it. If the S. States therefore should have 3/4 of the people of America within their limits, the Northern will hold fast the majority of Representatives. 1/4 will govern the 3/4. The S. States will complain; but they may complain from generation to generation without redress.

Unless some principle therefore which will do justice to them hereafter shall be inserted in the Const.i.tution, disagreable as the declaration was to him, he must declare he could neither vote for the system here, nor support it, in his State. Strong objections had been drawn from the danger to the Atlantic interests from new Western States. Ought we to sacrifice what we know to be right in itself, lest it should prove favorable to States which are not yet in existence. If the Western States are to be admitted into the Union, as they arise, they must, he w^d repeat, be treated as equals, and subjected to no degrading discriminations. They will have the same pride & other pa.s.sions which we have and will either not unite with or will speedily revolt from the Union, if they are not in all respects placed on an equal footing with their brethren. It has been said they will be poor, and unable to make equal contributions to the general Treasury. He did not know but that in time they would be both more numerous & more wealthy than their Atlantic brethren. The extent & fertility of their soil, made this probable; and though Spain might for a time deprive them of the natural outlet for their productions, yet she will, because she must, finally yield to their demands. He urged that numbers of inhabitants; though not always a precise standard of wealth was sufficiently so for every substantial purpose.

M^r Williamson was for making it a duty of the Legislature to do what was right & not leaving it at liberty to do or not to do it. He moved that M^r Randolph's propositions be postpon^d in order to consider the following "that in order to ascertain the alterations that may happen in the population & wealth of the several States, a census shall be taken of the free white inhabitants and 3/5^{ths} of those of other descriptions on the 1^{st} year after this Government shall have been adopted and every ---- year thereafter; and that the Representation be regulated accordingly."

M^r Randolph agreed that M^r Williamson's proposition should stand in the place of his. He observed that the ratio fixt for the 1^{st} meeting was a mere conjecture, that it placed the power in the hands of that part of America, which could not always be ent.i.tled to it, that this power would not be voluntarily renounced; and that it was consequently the duty of the Convention to secure its renunciation when justice might so require; by some const.i.tutional provisions. If equality between great & small States be inadmissible, because in that case unequal numbers of Const.i.tuents w^d be represented by equal number of votes; was it not equally inadmissible that a larger & more populous district of America should hereafter have less representation, than a smaller & less populous district. If a fair representation of the people be not secured, the injustice of the Gov^t will shake it to its foundations.

What relates to suffrage is justly stated by the celebrated Montesquieu, as a fundamental article in Republican Gov^t. If the danger suggested by M^r Gov^r Morris be real, of advantage being taken of the Legislature in pressing moments, it was an additional reason, for tying their hands in such a manner that they could not sacrifice their trust to momentary considerations. Cong^s have pledged the public faith to New States, that they shall be admitted on equal terms. They never would or ought to accede on any other. The census must be taken under the direction of the General Legislature. The States will be too much interested to take an impartial one for themselves.

M^r Butler & Gen^l Pinkney insisted that blacks be included in the rule of Representation _equally_ with the whites; and for that purpose moved that the words "three-fifths" be struck out.

M^r Gerry thought that 3/5 of them was to say the least the full proportion that could be admitted.

M^r Ghorum. This ratio was fixed by Cong^s as a rule of taxation. Then it was urged by the Delegates representing the States having slaves that the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At present when the ratio of representation is to be established, we are a.s.sured that they are equal to freemen. The arguments on y^e former occasion convinced him that 3/5 was pretty near the just proportion and he should vote according to the same opinion now.

M^r Butler insisted that the labour of a slave in S. Carol^a was as productive & valuable as that of a freeman in Ma.s.s^{ts}, that as wealth was the great means of defence and utility to the Nation they were equally valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently an equal representation ought to be allowed for them in a Government which was inst.i.tuted princ.i.p.ally for the protection of property, and was itself to be supported by property.