The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 37

"About twelve days since the Convention appointed a Grand Comee, consisting of Gerry, Ellsworth, Yates, Paterson, Franklin, Bedford, Martin, Mason, Rutledge & Baldwin to adjust the Representation in the two Brs. of the Legislature of the U. S. They reported yt. every 40,000 Inhabs. taken agreeably to the Resolution of Cong. of ye 18 Ap. 1783, shd.

send one member to the first Br. of the Legislature, yt.

this Br. shd. originate exclusively Money Bills, & also originate ye appropriations of money; and that in ye Senate or upper Br. each State shd. have one vote & no more. The Representation as to the first Br. was twice recommitted altho' not to the same Committee; finally it was agreed yt Taxation of the direct sort & Representation shd. be in direct proportion with each other--that the first Br. shd.

consist of 65 members, viz. N. H. 3, M. 8, R. I. 1, C. 5, N. Y. 6, N. J. 4, P. 8, D. 1, M. 6, V. 10, N. C. 5, S. C. 5, G. 3,--and that the origination of money Bills and the Appropriations of money shd. belong in the first instance to yt. Br., but yt in the Senate or 2nd Br. each State shd.

have an equal Vote. In this situation of the Report it was moved by S. Car. that in the formation of the 2nd Br., instead of an equality of Votes among the States, that N. H.

shd. have 2, M. 4, R. I. 1, C. 3, N. Y. 3, N. J. 2, P. 4, D.

1, M. 3, V. 5, N. C. 3, S. C. 3, G. 2 = total 36.

"On the question to agree to this apportionment, instead of the equality (Mr. Gorham being absent) Ma.s.s., Con., N. Jer., Del., N. Car., & Georg--No. Penn., Mar., Virg. & S. Car.

Aye.

"This Question was taken and to my mortification by the vote of Ma.s.s. lost on the 14th July.

"(endorsed 'inequality lost by vote of Ma.s.s.')"--King's Note, King's _Life and Correspondence of Rufus King_, I., 615.

MONDAY, JULY 16. IN CONVENTION.

On the question for agreeing to the whole Report as amended & including the equality of votes in the 2^d branch, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative.

Ma.s.s. divided M^r Gerry, M^r Strong. ay. M^r King, M^r Ghorum no. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. Pen^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no.

N. C. ay. M^r Spraight no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The whole thus pa.s.sed is in the words following, viz. "Resolved, that in the original formation of the Legislature of the U. S. the first branch thereof shall consist of sixty five members, of which number N.

Hamps.h.i.+re shall send 3. Ma.s.s^{ts} 8. Rh. I. 1. Conn^t 5. N. Y. 6. N. J.

4. Pen^a 8. Del. 1. Mary^d 6. Virg^a 10. N. C. 5. S. C. 5. Geo. 3.--But as the present situation of the States may probably alter in the number of their inhabitants, the Legislature of the U. S. shall be authorized from time to time to apportion the number of Rep^s and in case any of the States shall hereafter be divided, or enlarged by addition of territory, or any two or more States united, or any new States created within the limits of the U. S. the Legislature of the U. S. shall possess authority to regulate the number of Rep^s in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principle of their number of inhabitants, according to the provisions hereafter mentioned. namely--provided always that representation ought to be proportioned according to direct taxation; and in order to ascertain the alteration in the direct taxation, which may be required from time to time by the changes in the relative circ.u.mstances of the States--

Resolved, that a Census be taken within six years from the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature of the U. S., and once within the term of every 10 years afterwards of all the inhabitants of the U. S. in the manner and according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their Resolution of April 18. 1783, and that the Legislature of the U. S.

shall proportion the direct taxation accordingly--

Resolved, that all bills for raising or appropriating money, and for fixing the salaries of officers of the Gov^t of the U. S. shall originate in the first branch of the Legislature of the U. S. and shall not be altered or amended in the 2^d branch: and that no money shall be drawn from the Public Treasury, but in pursuance of appropriations to be originated in the 1^{st} branch.

_Resolv^d_, that in the 2^d branch of the Legislature of the U. S., each State shall have an equal vote.

The 6^{th} Resol: in the Report from the Com^e of the whole House, which had been postponed in order to consider the 7 & 8^{th} Resol^{ns}.; was now resumed. see the Resol^n:

The 1^{st} member "That the Nat^l Legislature ought to possess the Legislative Rights vested in Cong^s by the Confederation" was agreed to nem. con.

The next, "And moreover to legislate in all cases to which the separate States are incompetent; or in which the harmony of the U. S. may be interrupted by the exercise of individual legislation," being read for a question.

M^r Butler calls for some explanation of the extent of this power; particularly of the word _incompetent_. The vagueness of the terms rendered it impossible for any precise judgment to be formed.

M^r Ghorum. The vagueness of the terms const.i.tutes the propriety of them. We are now establis.h.i.+ng general principles, to be extended hereafter into details which will be precise & explicit.

M^r Rutlidge, urged the objection started by M^r Butler and moved that the clause should be committed to the end that a specification of the powers comprised in the general terms, might be reported.

On the question for commitment, the States were equally divided

Mas. no. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N.

C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay: So it was lost.

M^r Randolph. The vote of this morning (involving an equality of suffrage in 2^d branch) had embarra.s.sed the business extremely. All the powers given in the Report from the Com^e of the whole, were founded on the supposition that a Proportional representation was to prevail in both branches of the Legislature. When he came here this morning his purpose was to have offered some propositions that might if possible have united a great majority of votes, and particularly might provide ag^{st} the danger suspected on the part of the smaller States, by enumerating the cases in which it might lie, and allowing an equality of votes in such cases.[133] But finding from the Preceding vote that they persist in demanding an equal vote in all cases, that they have succeeded in obtaining it, and that N. York, if present would probably be on the same side, he could not but think we were unprepared to discuss this subject further. It will probably be in vain to come to any final decision with a bare majority on either side. For these reasons he wished the Convention might adjourn, that the large States might consider the steps proper to be taken in the present solemn crisis of the business, and that the small States might also deliberate on the means of conciliation.

[133] See the paper, in the appendix, co[~m]unicated by M^r R.

to J. M. July 10.--Note in Madison's hand.

M^r Patterson, thought with M^r R. that it was high time for the Convention to adjourn that the rule of secrecy ought to be rescinded, and that our Const.i.tuents should be consulted. No conciliation could be admissible on the part of the smaller States on any other ground than that of an equality of votes in the 2^d branch. If M^r Randolph would reduce to form his motion for an adjournment sine die, he would second it with all his heart.

Gen^l Pinkney wished to know of M^r R. whether he meant an adjournment sine die, or only an adjournment for the day. If the former was meant, it differed much from his idea. He could not think of going to S.

Carolina and returning again to this place. Besides it was chimerical to suppose that the States if consulted would ever accord separately, and beforehand.

M^r Randolph, had never entertained an idea of an adjournment sine die; & was sorry that his meaning had been so readily & strangely misinterpreted. He had in view merely an adjournment till to-morrow, in order that some conciliatory experiment might if possible be devised, and that in case the smaller States should continue to hold back, the larger might then take such measures, he would not say what, as might be necessary.

M^r Patterson seconded the adjournment till to-morrow, as an opportunity seemed to be wished by the larger States to deliberate further on conciliatory expedients.

On the question for adjourning till tomorrow, the States were equally divided,

Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay.

N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no, so it was lost.

M^r Broome thought it his duty to declare his opinion ag^{st} an adjournment sine die, as had been urged by M^r Patterson. Such a measure he thought would be fatal. Something must be done by the Convention, tho' it should be by a bare majority.

M^r Gerry observed that Mas^{ts} was opposed to an adjournment, because they saw no new ground of compromise. But as it seemed to be the opinion of so many States that a trial sh^d be made, the State would now concur in the adjournm^t.

M^r Rutlidge could see no need of an adjourn^t because he could see no chance of a compromise. The little States were fixt. They had repeatedly & solemnly declared themselves to be so. All that the large States then had to do was to decide whether they would yield or not. For his part he conceived that altho' we could not do what we thought best, in itself, we ought to do something. Had we not better keep the Gov^t up a little longer, hoping that another Convention will supply our omissions, than abandon every thing to hazard. Our Const.i.tuents will be very little satisfied with us if we take the latter course.

M^r Randolph & M^r King renewed the motion to adjourn till tomorrow.

On the question. Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. div^d.

Adjourned

On the morning following before the hour of the Convention a number of the members from the larger States, by common agreement met for the purpose of consulting on the proper steps to be taken in consequence of the vote in favor of an equal Representation in the 2^d branch, and the apparent inflexibility of the smaller States on that point. Several members from the latter States also attended. The time was wasted in vague conversation on the subject, without any specific proposition or agreement. It appeared indeed that the opinions of the members who disliked the equality of votes differed much as to the importance of that point, and as to the policy of risking a failure of any general act of the Convention by inflexibly opposing it. Several of them supposing that no good Governm^t could or would be built on that foundation, and that as a division of the convention into two opinions was unavoidable; it would be better that the side comprising the princ.i.p.al States, and a majority of the people of America, should propose a scheme of Gov^t to the States, than that a scheme should be proposed on the other side, would have concurred in a firm opposition to the smaller States, and in a separate recommendation, if eventually necessary. Others seemed inclined to yield to the smaller States, and to concur in such an Act however imperfect & exceptionable, as might be agreed on by the Convention as a body, tho' decided by a bare majority of States and by a minority of the people of the U. States. It is probable that the result of this consultation satisfied the smaller States that they had nothing to apprehend from a Union of the larger, in any plan whatever ag^{st} the equality of votes in the 2^d branch.

TUESDAY JULY 17. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Govern^r Morris, moved to reconsider the whole Resolution agreed to yesterday concerning the const.i.tution of the 2 branches of the Legislature. His object was to bring the House to a consideration in the abstract of the powers necessary to be vested in the general Government.

It had been said, Let us know how the Gov^t is to be modelled, and then we can determine what powers can be properly given to it. He thought the most eligible course was, first to determine on the necessary powers, and then so to modify the Govern^t as that it might be justly & properly enabled to administer them. He feared if we proceeded to a consideration of the powers, whilst the vote of yesterday including an equality of the States in the 2^d branch, remained in force, a reference to it, either mental or expressed, would mix itself with the merits of every question concerning the powers.--This motion was not seconded. (It was probably approved by several members who either despaired of success, or were apprehensive that the attempt would inflame the jealousies of the smaller States.)

The 6^{th} Resol^n in the Report of the Com^e of the Whole relating to the powers, which had been postponed in order to consider the 7 & 8^{th} relating to the const.i.tution of the Nat^l Legislature, was now resumed.

M^r Sherman observed that it would be difficult to draw the line between the powers of the Gen^l Legislature, and those to be left with the States; that he did not like the definition contained in the Resolution, and proposed in place of the words "individual legislation" line 4.