The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 34

N. H. no. Mas. abs^t. C^t div^d. N. Jersey ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The consideration of the remaining clauses of Sect. 1. art. X. was then postponed till tomorrow at the instance of the Deputies of New Jersey.

Sect. 2. Art: X being taken up, the word information was transposed & inserted after "Legislature."

On motion of M^r Gov^r Morris, "he may" was struck out, & "and" inserted before "recommend" in the clause 2^d sect 2^d art: X. in order to make it the _duty_ of the President to recommend, & thence prevent umbrage or cavil at his doing it.

M^r Sherman objected to the sentence "and shall appoint officers in all cases not otherwise provided for by this Const.i.tution." He admitted it to be proper that many officers in the Executive Department should be so appointed--but contended that many ought not, as general officers in the army in time of peace &c. Herein lay the corruption in G. Britain. If the Executive can model the army, he may set up an absolute Government; taking advantage of the close of a war and an army commanded by his creatures. James 2^d was not obeyed by his officers because they had been appointed by his predecessors not by himself. He moved to insert "or by law" after the word "Const.i.tution."

On motion of M^r Madison "officers" was struck out and "to offices"

inserted, in order to obviate doubts that he might appoint officers without a previous creation of the offices by the Legislature.

On the question for inserting "or by law" as moved by M^r Sherman

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. Pen^a no. Del. no.

M^d no. V^a no. N. C. absent. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r d.i.c.kinson moved to strike out the words "and shall appoint to offices in all cases not otherwise provided for by this Const.i.tution"

and insert--"and shall appoint to all offices established by this Const.i.tution, except in cases herein otherwise provided for, and to all offices which may hereafter be created by law."

M^r Randolph observed that the power of appointments was a formidable one both in the Executive & Legislative hands--and suggested whether the Legislature should not be left at liberty to refer appointments in some cases, to some State authority.

M^r d.i.c.kenson's motion, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. abs^t. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r d.i.c.kinson then moved to annex to his last amendment "except where by law the appointment shall be vested in the Legislatures or Executives of the several States." M^r Randolph 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Wilson. If this be agreed to it will soon be a standing instruction from the State Legislatures to pa.s.s no law creating offices, unless the app^{ts} be referred to them.

M^r Sherman objected to "Legislatures" in the motion, which was struck out by consent of the movers.

M^r Gov^r Morris. This would be putting it in the power of the States to say, "You shall be viceroys but we will be viceroys over you"--

The motion was negatived without a Count of the States--

Ordered unanimously that the order respecting the adjournment at 4 OClock be repealed, & that in future the House a.s.semble at 10 OC. & adjourn at 3 OC.

Adjourned.

SAt.u.r.dAY AUGUST 25. 1787. IN CONVENTION

The 1^{st} clause of 1 Sect. of art: VII being reconsidered

Col. Mason objected to the term "_shall_"--fullfil the engagements & discharge the debts &c. as too strong. It may be impossible to comply with it. The Creditors should be kept in the same plight. They will in one respect be necessarily and properly in a better. The Government will be more able to pay them. The use of the term _shall_ will beget speculations and increase the pestilent practice of stock-jobbing. There was a great distinction between original creditors & those who purchased fraudulently of the ignorant and distressed. He did not mean to include those who have bought Stock in open market. He was sensible of the difficulty of drawing the line in this case, but he did not wish to preclude the attempt. Even fair purchasers at 4. 5. 6. 8 for 1 did not stand on the same footing with the first Holders, supposing them not to be blameable. The interest they receive even in paper, is equal to their purchase money. What he particularly wished was to leave the door open for buying up the securities, which he thought would be precluded by the term "shall" as requiring _nominal payment_, & which was not inconsistent with his ideas of public faith. He was afraid also the word "_shall_," might extend to all the old continental paper.

M^r Langdon wished to do no more than leave the Creditors in statu quo.

M^r Gerry said that for himself he had no interest in the question being not possessed of more of the securities than would, by the interest, pay his taxes. He would observe however that as the public had received the value of the literal amount, they ought to pay that value to some body.

The frauds on _the soldiers_ ought to have been foreseen. These poor & ignorant people could not but part with their securities. There are other creditors who will part with any thing rather than be cheated of the capital of their advances. The interest of the States he observed was different on this point, some having more, others less than their proportion of the paper. Hence the idea of a scale for reducing its value had arisen. If the public faith would admit, of which he was not clear, he would not object to a revision of the debt so far as to compel rest.i.tution to the ignorant & distressed, who have been defrauded. As to stock-jobbers he saw no reason for the censures thrown on them. They keep up the value of the paper. Without them there would be no market.

M^r Butler said he meant neither to increase nor diminish the security of the Creditors.

M^r Randolph moved to postpone the clause in favor of the following "All debts contracted & engagements entered into, by or under the authority of Cong^s shall be as valid ag^{st} the U. States under this const.i.tution as under the Confederation."

Doc^r Johnson. The debts are debts of the U. S. of the great Body of America. Changing the Government cannot change the obligation of the U.

S. which devolves of course on the new Government. Nothing was in his opinion necessary to be said. If any thing, it should be a mere declaration as moved by M^r Randolph.

M^r Gov^r Morris, said he never had become a public Creditor that he might urge with more propriety the compliance with public faith. He had always done so and always would, and preferr'd the term "_shall_" as the most explicit. As to _buying up_ the debt, the term "_shall_" was not inconsistent with it, if provision be first made for paying the interest: if not, such an expedient was a mere evasion. He was content to say nothing as the New Government would be bound of course, but would prefer the clause with the term "_shall_," because it would create many friends to the plan.

On M^r Randolph's Motion

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. Mary^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Sherman thought it necessary to connect with the clause for laying taxes duties &c. an express provision for the object of the old debts &c.--and moved to add to the 1^{st} clause of 1^{st} sect. art VII "for the payment of said debts and for the defraying the expences that shall be incurred for the common defence and general welfare."

The proposition, as being unnecessary was disagreed to, Connecticut alone, being in the affirmative.

The Report of the Committee of eleven (see friday the 24^{th} instant) being taken up,

Gen^l Pinkney moved to strike out the words, "the year eighteen hundred"

as the year limiting the importation of slaves, and to insert the words "the year eighteen hundred and eight."

M^r Ghorum 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Madison. Twenty years will produce all the mischief that can be apprehended from the liberty to import slaves. So long a term will be more dishonourable to the National character than to say nothing about it in the Const.i.tution.

On the motion; which pa.s.sed in the affirmative,

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris was for making the clause read at once, "the importation of slaves into N. Carolina, S. Carolina & Georgia shall not be prohibited &c." This he said would be most fair and would avoid the ambiguity by which, under the power with regard to naturalization, the liberty reserved to the States might be defeated. He wished it to be known also that this part of the Const.i.tution was a compliance with those States. If the change of language however should be objected to by the members from those States, he should not urge it.

Col. Mason was not against using the term "slaves" but ag^{st} naming N.

C. S. C. & Georgia, lest it should give offence to the people of those States.

M^r Sherman liked a description better than the terms proposed, which had been declined by the old Cong^s & were not pleasing to some people.

M^r Clymer concurred with M^r Sherman.

M^r Williamson said that both in opinion & practice he was against slavery; but thought it more in favor of humanity, from a view of all circ.u.mstances, to let in S. C. & Georgia on those terms, than to exclude them from the Union.

M^r Gov^r Morris withdrew his motion.