The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 42

FRIDAY AUGUST 31^{ST} 1787. IN CONVENTION.

M^r King moved to add to the end of Art: XXI the words "between the said States" so as to confine the operation of the Gov^t to the States ratifying it.

On the question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. M^d no. Virg^a ay.

N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison proposed to fill the blank in the article with "any seven or more States ent.i.tled to thirty three members at least in the House of Representatives according to the allotment made in the 3 Sect: of Art: 4." This he said would require the concurrence of a majority of both the States and the people.

M^r Sherman doubted the propriety of authorizing less than all the States to execute the Const.i.tution, considering the nature of the existing Confederation. Perhaps all the States may concur, and on that supposition it is needless to hold out a breach of faith.

M^r Clymer and M^r Carrol moved to postpone the consideration of Art: XXI in order to take up the Reports of Committees not yet acted on. On this question, the States were equally divided.

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t div^d. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. G. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out "Conventions of the" after "ratifications" leaving the States to pursue their own modes of ratification.

M^r Carrol mentioned the mode of altering the Const.i.tution of Maryland pointed out therein, and that no other mode could be pursued in that State.

M^r King thought that striking out "Conventions," as the requisite mode was equivalent to giving up the business altogether. Conventions alone, which will avoid all the obstacles from the complicated formation of the Legislatures, will succeed, and if not positively required by the plan its enemies will oppose that mode.

M^r Gov^r Morris said he meant to facilitate the adoption of the plan, by leaving the modes approved by the several State Const.i.tutions to be followed.

M^r Madison considered it best to require Conventions; Among other reasons, for this, that the powers given to the Gen^l Gov^t being taken from the State Gov^{ts} the Legislatures would be more disinclined than conventions composed in part at least of other men; and if disinclined, they could devise modes apparently promoting, but really thwarting the ratification. The difficulty in Maryland was no greater than in other States, where no mode of change was pointed out by the Const.i.tution, and all officers were under oath to support it. The people were in fact, the fountain of all power, and by resorting to them, all difficulties were got over. They could alter const.i.tutions as they pleased. It was a principle in the Bills of rights, that first principles might be resorted to.

M^r M^cHenry said that the officers of Gov^t in Maryland were under oath to support the mode of alteration prescribed by the Const.i.tution.

M^r Ghorum urged the expediency of "Conventions" also M^r Pinkney, for reasons formerly urged on a discussion of this question.

M^r L. Martin insisted on a reference to the State Legislatures. He urged the danger of commotions from a resort to the people & to first principles, in which the Governments might be on one side and the people on the other. He was apprehensive of no such consequences however in Maryland, whether the Legislature or the people should be appealed to.

Both of them would be generally against the Const.i.tution. He repeated also the peculiarity in the Maryland Const.i.tution.

M^r King observed that the Const.i.tution of Ma.s.sachusetts was made unalterable till the year 1790, yet this was no difficulty with him. The State must have contemplated a recurrence to first principles before they sent deputies to this Convention.

M^r Sherman moved to postpone art. XXI. & to take up art: XXII on which question,

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P. ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On M^r Gov^r Morris's motion to strike out "Conventions of the," it was negatived.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On filling the blank in Art: XXI with "thirteen" moved by Mr. Carrol & Martin, N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no, all except Maryland.

M^r Sherman & M^r Dayton moved to fill the blank with "ten."

M^r Wilson supported the motion of M^r Madison, requiring a majority both of the people and of States. M^r Clymer was also in favor of it.

Col: Mason was for preserving ideas familiar to the people. Nine States had been required in all great cases under the Confederation & that number was on that account preferable.

On the question for "ten"

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On question for "nine"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

Art: XXI. as amended was then agreed to by all the States, Maryland excepted, & M^r Jenifer being ay.

Art. XXII taken up, to wit, "This Const.i.tution shall be laid before the U. S. in Cong^s a.s.sembled for their approbation; and it is the opinion of this Convention that it should be afterwards submitted to a Convention chosen, in each State under the recommendation of its Legislature, in order to receive the ratification of such Convention."

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Pinkney moved to strike out the words "for their approbation." On this question

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay.[47] P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

[47] In the printed Journal N. Jersey--no.--Madison's Note.

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Pinkney then moved to amend the art: so as to read

"This Const.i.tution shall be laid before the U. S. in Congress a.s.sembled; and it is the opinion of this Convention that it should afterwards be submitted to a Convention chosen in each State, in order to receive the ratification of such Convention; to which end the several Legislatures ought to provide for the calling Conventions within their respective States as speedily as circ.u.mstances will permit."

M^r Gov^r Morris said his object was to impress in stronger terms the necessity of calling Conventions in order to prevent enemies to the plan, from giving it the go by. When it first appears, with the sanction of this Convention, the people will be favorable to it. By degrees the State officers, & those interested in the State Gov^{ts} will intrigue & turn the popular current against it.

M^r L. Martin believed M^r Morris to be right, that after a while the people would be ag^{st} it, but for a different reason from that alledged. He believed they would not ratify it unless hurried into it by surprize.

M^r Gerry enlarged on the idea of M^r L. Martin in which he concurred, represented the system as full of vices, and dwelt on the impropriety of destroying the existing Confederation, without the unanimous consent of the parties to it.

Question on M^r Gov^r Morris's & M^r Pinkney's motion

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Gerry moved to postpone art: XXII.

Col: Mason 2^{ded} the motion, declaring that he would sooner chop off his right hand than put it to the Const.i.tution as it now stands. He wished to see some points not yet decided brought to a decision, before being compelled to give a final opinion on this article. Should these points be improperly settled, his wish would then be to bring the whole subject before another general Convention.

M^r Gov^r Morris was ready for a postponement. He had long wished for another Convention, that will have the firmness to provide a vigorous Government, which we are afraid to do.

M^r Randolph stated his idea to be, in case the final form of the Const.i.tution should not permit him to accede to it, that the State Conventions should be at liberty to propose amendments to be submitted to another General Convention which may reject or incorporate them, as may be judged proper.

On the question for postponing