The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 50

M^r Butler was strenuous for the motion, as a necessary security against ambitious & corrupt Presidents. He mentioned the late perfidious policy of the Statholder in Holland; and the artifices of the Duke of Marlbro'

to prolong the war of which he had the management.

M^r Gerry was of opinion that in treaties of peace a greater rather than less proportion of votes was necessary, than in other treaties. In Treaties of peace the dearest interests will be at stake, as the fisheries, territory &c. In treaties of peace also there is more danger to the extremities of the Continent of being sacrificed, than on any other occasions.

M^r Williamson thought that Treaties of peace should be guarded at least by requiring the same concurrence as in other Treaties.

On the motion of M^r Madison & M^r Butler

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the part of the clause concerning treaties amended by the exception as to Treaties of peace,

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

"and may require the opinion in writing of the princ.i.p.al officer in each of the Executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices," being before the House

Col: Mason[60] said that in rejecting a Council to the President we were about to try an experiment on which the most despotic Government had never ventured. The Grand Signor himself had his Divan. He moved to postpone the consideration of the clause in order to take up the following.

[60] In the printed Journal, M^r Madison is erroneously subst.i.tuted for Col: Mason.--Madison's Note.

"That it be an instruction to the Committee of the States to prepare a clause or clauses for establis.h.i.+ng an Executive Council, as a Council of State for the President of the U.

States, to consist of six members, two of which from the Eastern, two from the middle, and two from the Southern States, with a Rotation and duration of office similar to those of the Senate; such Council to be appointed by the Legislature or by the Senate."

Doctor Franklin 2^{ded} the motion. We seemed he said too much to fear cabals in appointments by a number, and to have too much confidence in those of single persons. Experience shewed that caprice, the intrigues of favorites & mistresses, were nevertheless the means most prevalent in monarchies. Among instances of abuse in such modes of appointment, he mentioned the many bad Governors appointed in G. B. for the Colonies. He thought a Council would not only be a check on a bad President but be a relief to a good one.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The question of a Council was considered in the Committee, where it was judged that the Presid^t by persuading his Council to concur in his wrong measures, would acquire their protection for them.

M^r Wilson approved of a Council in preference to making the Senate a party to appointm^{ts}.

M^r d.i.c.kinson was for a Council. It w^d be a singular thing if the measures of the Executive were not to undergo some previous discussion before the President.

M^r Madison was in favor of the instruction to the Committee proposed by Col: Mason.

The motion of M^r Mason was negatived.

May^d ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.--N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no.

N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. V^a no. N. C. no.

On the question, "authorizing the President to call for the opinions of the Heads of Departments, in writing": it pa.s.sed in the affirmative N.

H. only being no.[61]

[61] Not so stated in the printed Journal; but conformable to the result afterwards appearing.--Madison's Note.

The clause was then unanimously agreed to--

M^r Williamson & M^r Spaight moved "that no Treaty of peace affecting Territorial rights sh^d be made without the concurrence of two thirds of the members of the Senate present."

M^r King. It will be necessary to look out for securities for some other rights, if this principle be established; he moved to extend the motion--"to all present rights of the U. States."

Adjourned.

SAt.u.r.dAY SEPTEMBER 8^{TH} IN CONVENTION

The last Report of the Committee of Eleven (see Sep^r 4) was resumed.

M^r King moved to strike out the "exception of Treaties of peace" from the general clause requiring two thirds of the Senate for making Treaties.

M^r Wilson wished the requisition of two thirds to be struck out altogether. If the majority cannot be trusted, it was a proof, as observed by M^r Ghorum, that we were not fit for one Society.

A reconsideration of the whole clause was agreed to.

M^r Gov^r Morris was ag^{st} striking out the "exception of Treaties of peace." If two thirds of the Senate should be required for peace, the Legislature will be unwilling to make war for that reason, on account of the Fisheries or the Mississippi, the two great objects of the Union.

Besides, if a majority of the Senate be for peace, and are not allowed to make it, they will be apt to effect their purpose in the more disagreeable mode, of negativing the supplies for the war.

M^r Williamson remarked that Treaties are to be made in the branch of the Gov^t where there may be a majority of the States without a majority of the people. Eight men may be a majority of a quorum, & should not have the power to decide the conditions of peace. There would be no danger, that the exposed States, as S. Carolina or Georgia, would urge an improper war for the Western Territory.

M^r Wilson. If two thirds are necessary to make peace, the minority may perpetuate war, against the sense of the majority.

M^r Gerry enlarged on the danger of putting the essential rights of the Union in the hands of so small a number as a majority of the Senate, representing perhaps, not one fifth of the people. The Senate will be corrupted by foreign influence.

M^r Sherman was ag^{st} leaving the rights established by the Treaty of peace, to the Senate, & moved to annex a proviso that no such rights sh^d be ceded without the sanction of the Legislature.

M^r Gov^r Morris seconded the ideas of M^r Sherman.

M^r Madison observed that it had been too easy in the present Congress, to make Treaties altho' nine States were required for the purpose.

On the question for striking "except Treaties of peace"

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Wilson & M^r Dayton move to strike out the clause requiring two thirds of the Senate for making Treaties; on which,

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t div^d. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Rutlidge & M^r Gerry moved that "no Treaty be made without the consent of 2/3 of all the members of the Senate"--according to the example in the present Cong^s.

M^r Ghorum. There is a difference in the case, as the President's consent will also be necessary in the new Gov^t.

On the question

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. (M^r Gerry ay.) C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no.

Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.