The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 52

M^r M^cHenry observed that the President had not yet been any where authorized to convene the Senate, and moved to amend Art X. sect. 2. by striking out the words "he may convene them (the Legislature) on extraordinary occasions," & insert, "He may convene both or either of the Houses on extraordinary occasions." This he added would also provide for the case of the Senate being in Session, at the time of convening the Legislature.

M^r Wilson said he should vote ag^{st} the motion, because it implied that the senate might be in Session, when the Legislature was not, which he thought improper.

On the question

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

A Committee was then appointed by Ballot to revise the stile of and arrange the articles which had been agreed to by the House. The committee consisted of M^r Johnson, M^r Hamilton, M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Madison and M^r King.

M^r Williamson moved that, previous to this work of the Committee the clause relating to the number of the House of Representatives sh^d be reconsidered for the purpose of increasing the number.

M^r Madison 2^{ded} the Motion.

M^r Sherman opposed it he thought the provision on that subject amply sufficient.

Col: Hamilton expressed himself with great earnestness and anxiety in favor of the motion. He avowed himself a friend to a vigorous Government, but would declare at the same time, that he held it essential that the popular branch of it should be on a broad foundation.

He was Seriously of opinion that the House of Representatives was on so narrow a scale as to be really dangerous, and to warrant a jealousy in the people for their liberties. He remarked that the connection between the President & Senate would tend to perpetuate him, by corrupt influence. It was the more necessary on this account that a numerous representation in the other branch of the Legislature should be established.

On the motion of M^r Williamson to reconsider, it was negatived[64]

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

[64] This motion & vote are entered on the Printed journal of the ensuing morning.--Madison's Note.

Adj^d.

MONDAY SEP^R 10. 1787 IN CONVENTION[65]

[65] "There is said to be a disposition generally prevalent thro' this state to comply with y^e plan of y^e convention without much scrutiny, Hervey, who has been in Albemarle lately, says y^t Nicholas is determined to support it however contrary it may be to his own opinions. I am persuaded that those who sacrifice solid and permanent advantages in this plan, to their idea of the transitory disposition of the people, will condemn themselves hereafter."--James McClurg to Madison, September 10, 1787.--Mad. MSS.

M^r Gerry moved to reconsider Art XIX. viz. "On the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the States in the Union, for an amendment of this Const.i.tution, the Legislature of the U. S. shall call a Convention for that purpose," (see Aug 6).

This const.i.tution he said is to be paramount to the State Const.i.tutions.

It follows hence, from this article that two thirds of the States may obtain a Convention, a majority of which can bind the Union to innovations that may subvert the State Const.i.tutions altogether. He asked whether this was a situation proper to be run into.

M^r Hamilton 2^{ded} the motion, but he said with a different view from M^r Gerry. He did not object to the consequences stated by M^r Gerry.

There was no greater evil in subjecting the people of the U.S. to the major voice than the people of a particular State. It had been wished by many and was much to have been desired that an easier mode of introducing amendments had been provided by the articles of the Confederation. It was equally desirable now that an easy mode should be established for supplying defects which will probably appear in the new System. The mode proposed was not adequate. The State Legislatures will not apply for alterations but with a view to increase their own powers.

The National Legislature will be the first to perceive and will be most sensible to the necessity of amendments, and ought also to be empowered, whenever two thirds of each branch should concur to call a Convention.

There could be no danger in giving this power, as the people would finally decide in the case.

M^r Madison remarked on the vagueness of the terms, "call a Convention for the purpose," as sufficient reason for reconsidering the article.

How was a Convention to be formed? by what rule decide? what the force of its acts?

On the motion of M^r Gerry to reconsider

N. H. div^d. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Sherman moved to add to the article "or the Legislature may propose amendments to the several States for their approbation, but no amendments shall be binding until consented to by the several States."

M^r Gerry 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Wilson moved to insert, "two thirds of" before the words "several States"--on which amendment to the motion of M^r Sherman

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Wilson then moved to insert "three fourths of" before "the several Sts." which was agreed to nem: con:

M^r Madison moved to postpone the consideration of the amended proposition in order to take up the following,

"The Legislature of the U. S. whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem necessary, or on the application of two thirds of the Legislatures of the several States, shall propose amendments to this Const.i.tution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part thereof, when the same shall have been ratified by three fourths at least of the Legislatures of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Legislature of the U.S:"

M^r Hamilton 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Rutlidge said he never could agree to give a power by which the articles relating to slaves might be altered by the States not interested in that property and prejudiced against it. In order to obviate this objection, these words were added to the proposition:[66]

"provided that no amendments which may be made prior to the year 1808 shall in any manner affect the 4 & 5 sections of the VII article."--The postponement being agreed to,

[66] The Printed Journal makes the succeeding proviso as to sections 4 & 5, of the art: VII moved by M^r Rutlidge, part of the proposition of M^r Madison.--Madison's Note.

On the question on the proposition of M^r Madison & M^r Hamilton as amended

N. H. div^d. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry moved to reconsider Art: XXI and XXII. from the latter of which "for the approbation of Cong^s" had been struck out. He objected to proceeding to change the Government without the approbation of Congress, as being improper and giving just umbrage to that body: He repeated his objections also to an annulment of the confederation with so little scruple or formality.

M^r Hamilton concurred with M^r Gerry as to the indecorum of not requiring the approbation of Congress. He considered this as a necessary ingredient in the transaction. He thought it wrong also to allow nine States as provided by Art XXI. to inst.i.tute a new Government on the ruins of the existing one. He w^d propose as a better modification of the two articles (XXI & XXII) that the plan should be sent to Congress in order that the same if approved by them, may be communicated to the State Legislatures, to the end that they may refer it to State conventions; each Legislature declaring that if the Convention of the State should think the plan ought to take effect among nine ratifying States, the same sh^d take effect accordingly.

M^r Gorham. Some States will say that nine States shall be sufficient to establish the plan, others will require unanimity for the purpose. And the different and conditional ratifications will defeat the plan altogether.

M^r Hamilton. No Convention convinced of the necessity of the plan will refuse to give it effect on the adoption by nine States. He thought this mode less exceptionable than the one proposed in the article, while it would attain the same end.

M^r Fitzimmons remarked that the words "for their approbation" had been struck out in order to save Congress from the necessity of an Act inconsistent with the Articles of Confederation under which they held their authority.

M^r Randolph declared, if no change should be made in this part of the plan, he should be obliged to dissent from the whole of it. He had from the beginning he said been convinced that radical changes in the system of the Union were necessary. Under this conviction he had brought forward a set of republican propositions as the basis and outline of a reform. These Republican propositions had however, much to his regret, been widely, and, in his opinion, irreconcileably departed from. In this state of things it was his idea and he accordingly meant to propose, that the State Conventions sh^d be at liberty to offer amendments to the plan; and that these should be submitted to a second General Convention, with full power to settle the Const.i.tution finally. He did not expect to succeed in this proposition, but the discharge of his duty in making the attempt, would give quiet to his own mind.

M^r Wilson was against a reconsideration for any of the purposes which had been mentioned.

M^r King thought it would be more respectful to Congress to submit the plan generally to them; than in such a form as expressly and necessarily to require their approbation or disapprobation. The a.s.sent of nine States he considered as sufficient; and that it was more proper to make this a part of the Const.i.tution itself, than to provide for it by a supplemental or distinct recommendation.

M^r Gerry urged the indecency and pernicious tendency of dissolving in so slight a manner, the solemn obligations of the articles of confederation. If nine out of thirteen can dissolve the compact. Six out of nine will be just as able to dissolve the new one hereafter.