Poking A Dead Frog Part 12

GABE DELAHAYE.

Writer, This American Life, Funny or Die, McSweeney's, Gawker, Huffington Post, ESPN, CNN; Founding Editor, Videogum When it comes to advice about humor writing, or really any type of writing, two things seem to stick out. The first is that you should really be looking for better advice. Humor writing? Give me a break! How about advice that might actually lead to the earning of actual money? Or even advice on which specific advice cla.s.ses to take? That might prove more fruitful. The second thing that sticks out is something I was once told, which I am paraphrasing here: "You aren't good at writing, but if you can get over that, then one day maybe you will be okay at writing." I think that's really solid advice. If you're reading this right now, you might not be a great writer-in fact, you probably aren't. No offense! But if you accept that, then maybe you can start working your way toward the holy grail of writing: not being a terrible writer. But this takes time! You know who starts out great? High school football captains. And you know what they do now? They sell insulated hot tub liners to pay for their alimony. So relax.

When it comes to writing advice, there really is no such thing. No one who's successful knows exactly how their path has led to their success. Every journey is different. It doesn't matter how Erma Bombeck did it because your path is your own and no one else's.

With that said, these ideas have worked for me: #1.Write what you think is funny. This does not mean anyone else will agree, but if you write what you hope others will think is funny, you have already alienated at least some readers.

#2.If you aren't willing to do something for free at first, no one is going to pay for it later. It is called "paying your dues" for a reason. Truth be told, you might never get paid, but how is that different from no one paying for it now? Besides, if this is about money for you, you are very confused about where all the money is hidden.

#3.It is almost never worth arguing with someone on the Internet about anything-ever. Unless they think 9/11 was an inside job, in which case it might be funny.

#4.If you are lucky enough to get an audience for your comedy, be nice to that audience. You are lucky to have them.

#5.You don't have to be a writer or a comedian. Quitting is allowed. I'm not saying you should quit-I'm just saying that it's an option that a lot of writing and comedy advice books don't provide, even though they should. Writing is boring and solitary and lonely and awful. Comedy is even worse. You're not living in ancient Sparta, Greece. Stop fighting. You can do whatever you want in life. Make a baby with an insulated hot tub lining salesman. He's still got it! Or go back to choosing which advice cla.s.ses might be most useful.

#6.Make friends with smart, funny, highly motivated, encouraging, wonderful people who are more talented than you. This is obviously easier said than done, so you should stop reading this immediately and go get started on that.

Good luck.

GLEN CHARLES.

During an interview with NPR: Morning Edition in 2012, famed TV director James Burrows (The Mary Tyler Moore Show, The Bob Newhart Show, Wings, Frasier, and many others) shared what he called "one of the biggest laughs [he] ever heard." The laugh in question came during an episode in the second season of Taxi, which aired in 1979, when Reverend Jim (played by Christopher Lloyd) attempts to cheat on his driver's license written exam.

"What does a yellow light mean?" Jim whispers to his friends from the Suns.h.i.+ne Cab Company who are standing nearby. Bobby (played by Jeff Conaway) whispers back, "Slow down." Jim considers this, and then responds, "What . . . does . . . a . . . yellow . . . light . . . mean?" The joke is repeated again and again-each time more slowly-until, according to Burrows, the "laugh goes on for forty-five seconds," one of the longest in the history of television.

The script was written by two brothers, Glen and Les Charles. It was one of seventeen teleplays they wrote for Taxi and the beginning of a fruitful creative relations.h.i.+p with Burrows.

The brothers were raised just outside Las Vegas by Mormon parents in the 1940s. Both graduated from the University of Redlands with a degree in liberal arts, with Glen pursuing a career as an advertising copywriter and Les working as a subst.i.tute high school teacher. But one night in the early 1970s, while watching CBS on Sat.u.r.day night-which, at the time had a legendary lineup, including All in the Family and The Bob Newhart Show-both brothers were inspired to try co-writing a spec script for The Mary Tyler Moore Show. They submitted the script to MTM Enterprises, the show's production company, but never received a response.

Undeterred, they kept writing, finis.h.i.+ng dozens of spec scripts. They were so confident in their abilities that they quit their respective day jobs, devoting themselves exclusively to writing. Les and his wife were living out of a Volkswagen bus when he and Glen finally sold a script, an episode of M*A*S*H, which they'd t.i.tled "The Late Captain Pierce" (it aired in October 1975). But then came more rejection.

Two years later, almost penniless, they finally heard back from MTM, who not only bought their original Mary Tyler Moore script ("Mary and the s.e.xagenarian," which aired in February 1977) but also hired them as staff writers, where they contributed scripts to Doc, The Bob Newhart Show, and the Mary Tyler Moore spin-off Phyllis. This experience led to their friends.h.i.+p with director and producer James L. Brooks, who hired them as writers and coproducers on a new show called Taxi. And Taxi led to a friends.h.i.+p with James Burrows, a director on the show, who eventually lured them away to launch their own production company, Charles-Burrows-Charles, which resulted in the long-running series that Amy Poehler, in an October 2012 GQ oral history, called "the best TV show that's ever been": Cheers.

Though ratings for the first season of Cheers were poor, both NBC chairman Grant Tinker and the network's president, Brandon Tartikoff, were fans, and the show received critical praise and plenty of awards, earning 4 of its 117 Emmy nominations (it would eventually win a total of 28). Eventually, the world discovered it, and Cheers went on to run for eleven seasons, from 1982 to 1993. Nearly everybody in the cast-Ted Danson, Sh.e.l.ley Long, and Kelsey Grammer-became stars. For the final episode, which aired in May 1993, more than 42 million viewers tuned in, including thousands who watched on giant screens set up outside Boston's Bull & Finch bar, the inspiration for the Cheers setting. It was a public event, the likes of which will probably never be seen for a final TV show again.

But the real stars of Cheers were the scripts. It could be argued that the script Glen and Les wrote for the premiere episode of Cheers-"Give Me a Ring Sometime," which aired in September 1982-was one of the best, if not the greatest, premiere script ever penned for a sitcom. Megan Ganz, now a writer for Community, says, "What's amazing about that pilot is how much exposition Glen and Les were able to do with the characters just sitting down and talking with each other. Nothing actually happens. They were able to do a great amount in a very small s.p.a.ce and with very little." When it came time for Megan Ganz to write her first script for Community in 2011, she says, "When I was writing that episode, I just kept thinking, Be like the Cheers script and it'll be great."

You grew up in the 1950s in Henderson, Nevada, just on the outskirts of Las Vegas. Did your father work in the gaming industry?

Les and I had a yin-yang childhood. Our mother, a very kind and sweet-tempered lady, was an elementary school teacher, a devout Mormon, and determined to get us all into heaven. Our father, a Mormon but an errant one, worked as a dealer in several Vegas casinos, the gambling dens in the City of Sin. Many are gone from memory. Actually, most of them are gone, period. They all deserve it-they never gave the man Christmas off.

By most measures, my father was not a good father. He certainly wasn't abusive either physically or emotionally. Mostly he wasn't there. Neither Les nor I can remember him ever playing a game of catch with us. He did take me fis.h.i.+ng once. He kept telling me to be quiet. "Don't talk to me. Or the fish." I finally told him, "You're the one doing all the talking." Male bonding is an elusive thing.

I do remember Les and I watching comedy on television with our father. He had a great sense of humor and a great laugh. I don't remember him ever telling a formal joke. He'd give wry offhand commentary on things. A cheery, "Come and see us again when you can't stay so long," was his idea of good-bye. He'd dismiss envy with, "I wish I had that car and he had a pimple on his a.s.s." I'm making him sound angry, but he was not. He was essentially a sweet man with no driving ambitions. He did dabble with a stamp collection. For a time he had a drinking problem.

Your father didn't abide by the Mormon teachings of not consuming alcohol?

He was definitely a Jack Mormon, meaning that except for funerals he rarely saw the inside of a church. He was not religious. On his days off, he would go with a group of buddies and spend most of the day and night imbibing, and then come home, often just to clean up, change clothes, and then be on his merry way again. He changed jobs quite often. Not always his choice.

Not unlike the Norm character on Cheers.

Norm was a composite whose essential ingredient was George Wendt [the actor who played Norm], but yes, there was a lot of Dad in there. He would have loved to have found a bar like Cheers, and, for all we know, maybe he did. We of course never joined him on his convivial travels. He was an amiable guy who enjoyed being in his comfort zone with his own people. Of course my mother was mortified by my father's drinking; she was so afraid that he would be arrested, that he would be involved in some kind of accident, and that all of us, the whole family, would have to change our ident.i.ties, leave the area, and never show our faces again. And, in fact, one night my father was in a bar, and at closing time he got into his car and immediately backed into a Highway Patrol squad car. Occupied, by the way. Needless to say, he didn't get off with a warning. He spent the night in jail. The good news is that he never drank again. And he later started going to church on a regular basis, although neither his heart nor soul was really in it. But his body in a suit and tie on a pew next to my mother was just fine with her. The problem for us, her sons, was that she could now go to work on us.

Did you ever have an opportunity to meet some of the characters your father hung out with at the bar?

A few. My mother was less than thrilled when Dad brought them home, so he rarely did. These were people who lived on the periphery of casino life and who would scatter when they heard a siren. Some of them I liked. I found them far more interesting than anybody I met in church.

The 1950s Las Vegas that you're talking about was a city vastly different from today's family-friendly tourist attraction.

Everything was adults only. I had a friend who was in the business of making fake IDs. When I got my first driver's license at sixteen, I enlisted his help and suddenly became a very young twenty-one-year-old. I immediately gained access to casinos and shows and the world of [singer] Louis Prima and [comedian] Shecky Greene and, of course, Don Rickles. My first nightclub experience was a young Don Rickles in the lounge at the Sahara. It was so great. It was bright, it was loud, and here was this comedian mercilessly taking shots at everything that moved. This was something me and my buddies did with each other. The first night I saw Rickles, he did a running bit, exchanging double-talk j.a.panese with his Asian ba.s.s player, and they went back and forth bowing politely and jabbering. And Rickles finally said, "I shot your brother out of a tree!" And I thought, Geez, can you say that? During the course of the evening he insulted pretty much everybody's race, color, creed, and wife's looks. I realized then that comedy could be dangerous. So could falsifying your ID, by the way. We were let off with a warning.

Who were your favorite comedians on television at the time?

Jackie Gleason and Sid Caesar were two early favorites when we got our first television set. I watched their series fairly religiously. As I got older, I also was a fan of comedians who would appear on variety shows like Ed Sullivan. People like Nichols and May, Richard Pryor, Sh.e.l.ley Berman, and Bob Newhart. Newhart was a big favorite not just for his guest appearances but for his comedy alb.u.ms. I wore out the grooves on the [1960 alb.u.m] The b.u.t.ton-Down Mind of Bob Newhart.

Jack Benny was another big favorite. There's never been another comedian like him. Jack Benny never told jokes. He was the joke. He let himself be the b.u.t.t of other people's sniping at his cheapness, his vanity, lousy violin playing, and lying about his age long past credibility. It's been said that he made everyone around him funny, and he did. But you always laughed more at his response to these indignities than to the funny people in his stock company. The wait for him to respond to a thief telling him, "Your money or your life," gets funnier the longer it goes. It's supposedly one of the longest laughs in radio history. Underneath it all, I think I like Jack Benny because his persona was of a man who persisted in his vanity and illusions, no matter how often everyone he met would contradict him. Also, he established this comic persona in radio and translated it, intact, seamlessly to television.

Radio was a huge influence on me. Maybe not for Les, who's younger, but I think it's a great training ground for comedy writers. For all screenwriters, actually.

How so?

The great thing about radio is that the listener is an active partic.i.p.ant. You're given a soundtrack and the pictures are up to you. Some people said Cheers could have been a radio show. We didn't consider that a criticism.

Were you aware, as a child, that there were writers for these radio comedy shows that you enjoyed?

No, not in any real sense. When the credits were announced, they would say "Written by" and "Produced by." That had no meaning for me. When television later came along, I was amazed by the number of people it took to write comedy. A seemingly simple show like The Honeymooners, for example, had more writers than characters.

It would have been difficult for me to have fas.h.i.+oned a writing career without radio. It was a tremendous educational tool. It was very informative, but entertaining at the same time. It was all about the dialogue.

I've always loved listening to great dialogue and it seems we're now becoming an entertainment culture where dialogue is not as revered as it once was. With a lot of films now, there will be a line, another line, and then a cut. You look at some of the films from the thirties and forties, and there were long scenes where it's just two people talking. I don't think we have the attention span to stay with something like that right now. We need continual visual stimulation to keep interested.

Do you think that today's pop culture contains an overabundance of stimuli?

I have heard that 3D television can overstimulate the brain. But anyway, who cares really? That monster is out of the cage. I like all the eyeball dazzling as much as anyone. I am getting tired of big special effects and CGI movies about Armageddon and something from the bowels of the earth. But for all the babbling I do about radio and films of the thirties and forties, I'm happy to be around today. Most of the good stuff from that time is available anyway.

How far back does this dream to write go?

My first career ambition was to be a ventriloquist. I liked [the radio comedy team] Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy a lot. So I went and bought a book on ventriloquism. I told my parents that I wanted a dummy for Christmas. Some parents would have been shocked that their ten- or eleven-year-old boy wanted a doll, but mine didn't have any trouble with it. They couldn't afford therapy for me or themselves anyway. So I got my little friend, studied a bit, and performed at family reunions and school talent shows in the area. This lasted for two or three years.

Do you remember any specific jokes?

I had an uncle who'd lost his hair and I'd joke about how he wasn't bald, he just had an "exceptionally wide part." I would mostly just lift material from other ventriloquists.

Were you a fan of any movie comedians?

I was a big fan of the comedians who dealt with misfortune. Those who weren't successful, happy people, but those who somehow triumphed. Even if they didn't, they thought they did. W. C. Fields, a big influence. I was a huge Chaplin fan, but I was a much bigger Buster Keaton fan. Chaplin was obviously brilliant, but he could be a bit mawkish at times, whereas Keaton was all about funny.

Talking to me about influences is difficult, because I've had friends who have influenced my comedy. I have some very, very funny friends. When I was in the army in basic training, maybe the worst experience of my life, there was a guy in there who truly, truly was one of the funniest people I've ever met. I have no idea whatever happened to him, it's been a long time, but if he was able to put something on paper he could have certainly worked in the business. Often that's the difference between those who make it and those who go on to do other things. Just putting something on paper. Over and over and over.

When you later attended college, did you major in creative writing?

I never took a college writing course. I was a literature major. It was only after I graduated in 1965 that I took a course in comedy writing offered by UCLA extension. I had always been interested in comedy. It was taught by a person I'd never heard of who claimed to have written a lot of things I also never heard of. In the end, it was not very productive.

What did this teacher claim he had written?

I think he'd done punch-up for some sitcoms. The only thing I remember him telling us that had any kind of relevance was that the best jokes are the briefest. One of the other students in this cla.s.s was Garry Shandling. Garry had just arrived to Hollywood. I'm not sure he'd even remember it but we once chatted about how useless this cla.s.s was.

Many who teach humor writing have never actually made a living at humor writing. The majority tend to be more fans of comedy.

It would be difficult to teach. We're all perpetual students in this. You're always learning something, no matter how long you've been at it. When you're producing a television show and you're talking out a story with a writer, that is-in a way-a professor-student relations.h.i.+p. I've been on both sides of that equation, and it's as much a learning process for the ones running the meeting.

Are you still learning?

You're always learning when it comes to comedy. It's the nature of the game. There just simply aren't any hard-and-fast rules. The margin of error with the writing of a joke can be very, very small.

Many times over my career I had a joke that I was absolutely sure about. It would work all week at the reading and at the rehearsal. But by the time it got in front of an audience, it was lukewarm.

That's one of the things that fascinates me about humor writing. If you work as, say, a plumber or an electrician for forty years, I'd imagine your work tends to become less mysterious over time. Pipe A goes into Pipe B. This wire needs to be attached to that wire. With comedy, however, it seems that no matter how long you've worked in the field, it remains just as murky as it might have felt in the beginning.

It remains difficult. You never really know. But I think you develop a thermometer of sorts. I think you do become more sophisticated about what's going to work and what isn't. But because comedy is so subjective, what would put me on the floor will have you standing stone-faced. And it could change day to day.

Here's why this business makes you crazy. It was early on in Kirstie Alley's stay on Cheers. The beat was essentially Sam comes into her office to talk about something. She gives him a bad time, and he turns to leave and says something to the effect of, "You know, I bet when you smile, you light up a room. You should smile a lot more. It would really help." She pretends to be coy and shy. Eventually she does end up smiling at him. The joke was Sam then saying, "I'll be darned." Meaning, her smile didn't light up the room. And all week it worked. But when it came time for the shoot, it didn't work in front of the studio audience.

Looking back, do you think that joke needed some tweaking?

We figured it out in editing. During production we thought Sam's "I'll be darned" was the joke. In fact, Kirstie's reaction after the line when her smile turned to smoldering hatred was what we'd been laughing at all week. And, fortunately, it worked on film for the audience at home where it mattered most.

How did you go from taking an unproductive comedy-writing course with Garry Shandling to landing your first TV-writing job?

My brother and I wanted to write comedy. We were both dissatisfied with our lives. He was living in a Volkswagen bus with his wife. I began working as an advertising copywriter at a small firm in Los Angeles.

Les and I decided to try our hand at writing for TV. Sitcom wasn't the same pejorative term it had been. There were at least three high-quality comedies on the air; they were all different. There was All in the Family. There was M*A*S*H. And there was Mary Tyler Moore. Les and I were big fans of all three but especially M*A*S*H and Mary Tyler Moore. We watched some episodes and fired off a spec script to both of them. This served as our audition. We just watched and thought we could do it. Simple as that. M*A*S*H responded right away. For the Mary Tyler Moore script, MTM Enterprises took eleven months to get back to us, during which time we had pretty much decided to quit. But after a couple of scripts they ended up putting us on staff.

MTM, which produced The Mary Tyler Moore Show, was where you wanted to be as a TV comedy writer. There were so many good shows going on. It was really a community. MTM had picnics; they had tennis tournaments. It was just a fun place to be. It was a very bright, happening place.

Writing comedy as a team is always a difficult situation, even in the best of circ.u.mstances. But how much more difficult was it for you and your brother? Not only being writing partners, but also siblings?

We basically shared comedy DNA; we'd usually laugh at the same things, find the same people funny.

As showrunners, we kind of split functions. With comedy teams, one writer might be more joke-oriented; another might be more story-oriented. But it's very hard to differentiate. Les is very good at organizing and putting stories in order and sequence. He's more a.n.a.lytical. He was a good goalkeeper. I would say I'm a more active pitcher of stories and jokes. Obviously, there was overlap.

Were there ever fights over jokes?

There were, but if we got to the point where there was still a disagreement after discussion, we'd say, "Let's just throw it out." And over the years, arguments declined in frequency and intensity. No joke is worth the time and effort spent on talking about it. If you're unable to come up with a better joke, that's a bigger problem anyway. Also, we had to find a way to get along so as not to spoil family gatherings.

In 1978, you became the showrunners on Taxi. The executive producer of Taxi was Jim Brooks, who later went on to direct Terms of Endearment, Broadcast News, and As Good as It Gets. In Hollywood, Brooks is talked about in almost reverential tones, but with also a sort of fear. There are stories that to work for him is a rewarding experience that can also be quite challenging.

He was definitely a perfectionist. He always thought we could do better. I had a friend in comedy who said the worst day of his life was the day he met Jim Brooks-he realized he was never going to be the best. Jim has this fertile, fast, unpredictable comic perspective on things. We learned so much from him. He always had a fix. Even if it didn't work, it usually led somewhere.

Jim and the other producers on Taxi [Stan Daniels, David Davis, and Ed. Weinberger] had this formula-and this is just my opinion-but they felt that creating a great show has to involve a lot of angst. There has to be pain. If the show has an easy week, it's suspect.

Don't most shows-especially great shows-involve great angst?

I'm not convinced that you have to have a painful process to get a good result. Certainly, you can't be lackadaisical when you want something and it's not coming. When you're not getting what you want out of a scene, you've got to keep working at it. Believe me, Les and I had plenty of painful moments when we were later in charge, but we never insisted on difficulty being an essential aspect of the process.

One of the things that always struck me about Taxi is how melancholy its theme song was. It's a very low-key opening for a sitcom.

I remember liking it a lot when I first heard it. Up to that point, it was only big feel-good openings for sitcoms. But for Taxi, the theme song is very subdued, and for a reason. There was a sadness to Taxi, I think. There's a sadness to all the characters. Someone once described Taxi as being a show about h.e.l.l. All of the characters were essentially stuck in a very bleak environment, struggling to get out. I can definitely see that.

We were obviously not going for a subdued theme when we created Cheers. We spent a tremendous amount of time on it; it went through many different versions. Two writers worked on that song, Gary Portnoy, who had written for Air Supply and Dolly Parton, and a writer named Judy Hart Angelo. The first version was G.o.d-awful. So pat, so on the nose, rhyming, cheers with beers. It ultimately took five attempts. But when we heard the final version, we knew. It's interesting that with all of the writing talent that worked on Cheers over the years, the five words that are still the most a.s.sociated with the show came not from any of us, but from the songwriters: "Where everybody knows your name."

Taxi had a huge cast. Was there ever a problem with a specific actor not being able to sell a joke that you wrote?

When you have a gang comedy as we did on both Taxi and Cheers, you have your leads, but you have to service everybody. This goes for both actors and their characters. Some actors are surer than others. Some characters are more multidimensional than others. Some you have to protect.

How do you protect a character?

You give them foolproof jokes. You give them jokes that don't necessarily have to be played, that don't depend solely on delivery. The cast was mostly very good on Taxi. I'm thinking of two characters at most.

One of the stand-out characters on Taxi was Latka Gravas, a mechanic from an unnamed foreign country, played by comedian Andy Kaufman. A lot has been written about Andy's genius since he died in 1984 at the age of thirty-five, but could you recognize his genius at the time?

Andy was excellent in the role and yet I always felt Latka didn't fit in with the rest of the characters on Taxi. The rest were all fairly realistic. Alex Rieger, the Judd Hirsch character, would be a point of contrast. The Latka character would have been better for an animated show. We went a little too broad with Latka. He was from a fictional country. He spoke in a completely invented accent and language.

Whether or not Andy was a genius, I don't know. He was sui generis. I've never met or heard a performer like him. I think there was a s.a.d.i.s.tic streak in his stand-up. Like reading the entirety of The Great Gatsby to an audience. I do feel that the character of Latka was the best thing Andy did, and it's how he will mostly be remembered.

What was Andy like to write for, to work with?

If Andy was unhappy he certainly didn't show us that. He was mostly very cooperative-when he was himself. But Andy had it written into his contract that his lounge-lizard character, Tony Clifton, would be featured on two Taxi episodes each season. Clifton was everything Andy wasn't. Loud, obnoxious, rude, misogynistic. So when we wrote these episodes, we'd give the Clifton character a minimal amount of lines. I think he had one or two at most. It had nothing really to do with the story. But Andy couldn't even do that. Kaufman, as Clifton, was just all over the place, intentionally. The director would ask, "Can you say a line this way?" And Tony Clifton would say, "I'm doin' it the way I want. You can go f.u.c.k yourself!" [Laughs] That may be the first time I ever laughed at Tony Clifton.

The upshot is that Andy wanted to be fired-or he wanted Tony Clifton to be fired. And he wanted the firing to be done in front of a lot of people on the soundstage. He wanted the security to come in. He wanted to make it a performance. Right after lunch one day, he was asked to leave the set. He exploded, "I'm not leavin'! You gotta deal . . . you gotta deal with me!" He went crazy, and the guards came in and escorted him out. He was screaming all the way. I guess in his mind, just great fun.

This particular event has become infamous in the comedy community, but I can also imagine that if you were somehow involved-that if the show you were working on was being held up because of such a performance-it might not have been terribly entertaining.

If this happened today, it'd be all over the Internet. Everything Andy did would be. In a way it's too bad Andy was before his time. He would have reached a lot more people on YouTube than he ever did on Taxi. Anyway, I found it surreal. I didn't find it funny. I find it even less funny in retrospect that we allowed the indulgence. In the seventies, everything was a little wilder. It was, "Hey, let's be part of this. We're young. We're hip. Let's let it happen."

We were having a party after the shoot on the Taxi stage one evening. Andy invited me and Jimmy Burrows, the director for most episodes, to come up to his dressing room and meet a poet. The poet was a lady-young, slender, and blonde. Andy introduced us as the producer and director and asked us to sit on the sofa. He informed us that the young lady preferred to write and read her poetry in the nude. She declined at first but then started to disrobe. At that point Jimmy, obviously not as big a poetry fan as I was, said we'd best be going. He reminded me that our wives were a matter of feet away at the party and would soon be wondering where we'd gone. Looking back on it, I'm thinking maybe that that's what Andy wanted-our wives to walk in. Not out of any animosity toward us but just as, what . . . performance art? If all this had happened to somebody else I might have loved it.

It got stranger. Tony Clifton was once kicked off the set, and he returned with a gun. There were about two or three days when we said, "Well, we can put up with this." But then we concluded that it wasn't fair to the rest of the cast to allow this type of disruption to go on. We were shooting a television show. We eventually decided this was something we couldn't tolerate. Call us party p.o.o.pers, if you must.

From Taxi, you went on to create Cheers. You mentioned earlier that the setting for Taxi was quite bleak. With Cheers, however, I'd imagine it was extremely important, in a visual sense, to create not only an inviting bar for the fictional customers but also for the home viewers.