Second Shetland Truck System Report Part 188

7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark.

If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man who lives outside the d.y.k.e at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living within the d.y.k.e of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me except in the dark.

7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous; but some years there is a good deal of it.

7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quant.i.ties?-I cannot get it except in small quant.i.ties; just what the people can spare to me.

7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are many others.

7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular article I purchase it here.

7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from the south?-So far as I know, it is.

[Page 184]

7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them.

7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality, because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge upon their goods.

7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am not accusing him at all.

7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is the system I object to.

7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known several cases of that kind.

7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be, in order to correct this evil.

7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end of it.

7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than what I find around me, but the system would make them what they are on both sides.

7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were conducted in this part of the country.

7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants, we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their circ.u.mstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.

7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to payments from the s.h.i.+pwrecked Mariners' Society, or any society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished, and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south.

7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and handed over to the merchant who was princ.i.p.ally concerned in the fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and her share was 6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show you the 6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that purpose that charity is given in the south?

7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for which the subscription was made. The money was collected by the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband.

7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give more cases the same kind.

7584. That was not a case where the money came from the s.h.i.+pwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private subscription. I knew another case where several boats were lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny, and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop.

That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman.

7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for Shetland?

7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing for such a purpose as that money was applied to.

7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had happened. 3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave 10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was quite correct.

7588. How long was that after the subscription had been collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected, but it is only a week ago since I went to the man.

7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.'

7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was paid to the merchant at Hillswick.

[Page 185]

7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?'

'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.'

7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a couple of years.

7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I met him, I said, 'What was done with the 3, 10s.?' or whatever was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned, seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to the merchant.'

7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick.

7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85 years of age, and I don't believe he would be able.

7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case in connection with the s.h.i.+pwrecked Mariners' Society which I may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid into the s.h.i.+pwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society, either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent, said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world whether the s.h.i.+pwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case, but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such thing.

7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the s.h.i.+pwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's account, but that it was only done in a case where the account was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean by giving this evidence is, in order that the s.h.i.+pwrecked Mariners'

Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it.

7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known.

7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this morning?-I did.

7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked.

7601. Do you think there is any objection to that practice? Is there any reason why a man should not secure his debt by taking possession of the cattle of his debtor?-I hold that there ought to be no such seizure, and no such clandestine way of securing a man's debt. There are processes of law open to a man for securing his debt, if he chooses to avail himself of them.

7602. But the thing is done with the consent of the debtor?-That may be said, but my opinion is, that the debtor is not in a position to refuse; and in cases where it is done, it is done not only for the purpose of securing the man himself, but to keep the cattle from falling into the hands of another man to whom a debt is due.

7603. Are you speaking of cases which you know?-Yes.

Suppose I have cattle, and I am due you an account, and you give me provisions at your shop, perhaps another man, to whom I am also in debt, won't be so liberal, and I will tell you to come and mark my cattle and let the other man whistle. That is the way in which it is done. Now, such a practice is most immoral in its effects.

7604. In what way?-Because this man cheats the other one. I should have made a fair failure, and then both men would have got a share of the balance I could pay.

7605. Do you know whether the price credited to the debtor in such a case is generally a fair price?-I have no means of knowing that.

7606. Is the price ascertained by a public sale?-It may be in some cases, but I know in many cases it is not.

7607. Do you think that, for the introduction of ready-money system, a multiplication of banks would be necessary?-I don't think it.

7608. Does not the fact that banks only exist in Lerwick act as a bar to the introduction of such a system?-No; I think that difficulty could easily be met. For instance, the Union Bank at Lerwick had their princ.i.p.al inst.i.tution at the top of the town; but when opposition came, they opened small shop in the princ.i.p.al street in Lerwick, and they have now two offices there, a small one and a large one. Now, if the credit system were put an end to, for the sake of both parties, both merchants and people, there would soon be a small bank opened at Hillswick, if it should be nowhere else.

7609. How do people do with regard to banking just now?-The banking is very easily conducted, so far as I know, because the people have little money in their hands.