Sick In The Head: Conversations About Life And Comedy Part 41

Judd: That's how life works in our house.

STEPHEN COLBERT.

(2014).

Sometimes I would watch The Colbert Report and I'd be literally stunned at how funny it was. The writing and performing on that show were at a level never before seen on television.

Stephen Colbert is so funny, and such a nimble and versatile comedian, but he also seems to be a spiritual man who has found a measure of true happiness. That's something I don't understand at all, so I was thrilled to get the chance to ask him how this happy-funny combination is possible, with the small hope that he would say something that would change my life forever. I think he did say it at one point, and I intend to have it printed on a plaque that I can put on my refrigerator. I can't remember what it was, though, because I was too p.i.s.sed off to hear it.

Judd Apatow: It's hard to believe you're in the final few weeks of your show. Is it tough to focus on making this last run great when you have this giant new thing looming?

Stephen Colbert: It is. When you do a hundred and sixty shows a year, it's really hard to produce that much material. As I used to say, "All I want to do is eighty hours of comedy this year that I wouldn't mind my friends seeing."

Judd: (Laughs) Yeah.

Stephen: This year I'm just working on an eighty-hour comedy project. That's it. Listen, before I knew how horrible it would be, the strike in 2007 sounded like a great idea.

Judd: Are you burned out?

Stephen: I'm not, really. I'm not burned out-people may be reading this book centuries from now, so I'll have to remind them that I play a character on my show, and he's modeled on punditry, and I no longer respect my model. That's my problem. Regardless of whether I was moving on to something else after this show, I don't know if I could have done it much longer, because you have to be invested in your model. And I really am not. I can't watch that stuff anymore. That's what burns me out, not the grind. I like the grind. I like showing up every day with people that I respect, and doing the show with them. I always say that by the time I go out onstage, we've already done the show for each other, all day long. It's my responsibility, and privilege, to then translate that to an audience. You know? I'm the bottom of the funnel.

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: And that's part of the skill, to be able to coalesce and synthesize everything into a single mouth. So, I don't mind that. That doesn't burn me out. But now that I only have ten shows left, everything is harder. It's harder to only have ten left, because the way you prepare for a hundred and sixty shows is to build this enormous machine that is constantly firing information or jokes or script ideas that you're collecting as you go along: That one will work, that one will work, that one will work, throw that one away. And then you sweep them into a pile and say, "What does that mean? What are those about?" And then you go, "Oh, that's what that one's about. Put this one together with that, and then that's what you want to say." But now, we only have ten shows left. We can't just fire things randomly out of the cannon. Not that it was ever random. What I mean is, our level of output is no longer useful.

Judd: And sometimes the speed of things and the sense of it never ending is what keeps you from feeling nervous.

Stephen: Exactly. And when you have a certain number of shows left, you get afraid that, right at the end of the race, you're going to drop the baby.

Judd: It seems like people in this position respond differently. Like, when Conan O'Brien was getting canceled at The Tonight Show, he started turning out his best shows.

Stephen: He seemed very free.

Judd: The rage fired him up.

Stephen: Yeah.

Judd: It's like you're in a David Chase situation right now. You're ending The Sopranos.

Stephen: (Laughs) I wish.

Judd: Looking back, what was the main input for the show: the comedy or the politics?

Stephen: I once had a teacher who would say, "Write what you know, and write what you are interested in." I also had an improv teacher who said the first thing you are emotional about onstage is what the scene is about. So, regardless of what it is, you have to follow that rabbit hole. That's where you'll make your discoveries. I am an actor who became a comedian, and I wanted to do something with the skill set that I established; someone who was an actor who became an improviser, and through improvisation, learned dramatic structure and applied that to comedic scenes and sketch comedy-and then, for some weird reason, got hired by The Daily Show. It was kind of a mistake, and I went, Oh, but I also really care about the news. I enjoy it. I have eclectic interests, so maybe I could apply this little tool set that I've built up over the years to a lot of different subjects that might be covered in the news, and I also look like-wait, I look like a white guy.

Judd: (Laughs) Stephen: I look like the Man. I look like a very hegemonic figure. So, I said, Okay, I am an anchor. I look like an anchor, anyway, and so I did that for Jon for years. Acting was a tool toward doing comedy. I was a straight actor for years, actually, until I realized how much more I loved being in comedy, writing comedy, and being with comedians. The joy I felt with other comedians, that was the healthiest thing. I thought, Oh my G.o.d, look how much we're laughing and how agonizing it was for that to have gone that poorly. The healthy choice is to do this for the rest of my life.

Judd: I've realized that later in life, too. For a long time, I thought getting into comedy was an unhealthy choice. Only recently did I begin to think it's a healthy choice.

Stephen: Yeah, exactly. To me, it was. It's almost like committing myself to flossing and exercise. I don't really want to do anything other than comedy, and so did we talk about things that mattered to me? Did we occasionally invest our scripts with a satirical meaning that was overt? Yes. But, it's always comedy first. Because that's what I love. That's what keeps me going and alive.

Judd: When did that kick in for you, comedy as a point of view, as a way of dealing with life?

Stephen: I don't know if there was necessarily a moment. I remember when I was younger-I knew a guy, a great improviser, and I'm not going to name his name because of the advice he's about to give in this little story. He said, "You have to see the world differently than the audience does." Like, you have to put yourself in a state where you see the world differently than the audience does, because then you will surprise them with your choices. Comedy is all about surprising the audience with your choices. It might be something that is familiar to them, but they're surprised you're willing to say it. He said, "If you have to do heroin, do heroin. I would recommend you do heroin."

Judd: Okay. (Laughs) Stephen: But also, when I was a kid, we had a tragedy in my family. My father and two of my brothers, Peter and Paul, the two closest in age to me, died in a plane crash. I was ten years old, and my mother, who had always been a very religious person-not overtly related to their death-would say to me-if anything was wrong with my life, if anything was going wrong-she would say, "Look at this in the light of eternity. What is this in the light of eternity?" In other words, don't worry about this little thing.

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: And that light of eternity is another way of looking at everything. See it in the light of eternity. Don't see this as your momentary worry. So, that helped me not worry, and because my father and brothers had died, what could worry you more than that? From that point on, I never worked in school again. I maybe did my homework six times from age ten to eighteen.

Judd: Wow.

Stephen: I barely graduated. I just read a lot of books, so I incidentally learned enough to bulls.h.i.+t by. There was no threat that anyone could hold over me. Nothing seemed important. So that made me think differently about almost everything that normally happened to a child. What are you going to threaten me with? What could a teacher possibly threaten me with?

Judd: Your mom sounds wonderful.

Stephen: She was a lovely lady.

Judd: It's a great piece of wisdom, and her strength must have been ridiculous to be able to communicate that to you in a way that it landed. Because some kids-their parents would look at the big picture and then go take drugs and disappear.

Stephen: Well, I did take drugs.

Judd: (Laughs) Stephen: But my mom was not bitter. She did not become a bitter person. She had an excuse to be, and she did not. She stayed grateful for life. And her example kept me from-I was a broken kid, don't get me wrong, but I did not compound that by feeling guilty about not doing work, which is actually beside the point. The real point is it forced me to look at the world differently because, suddenly, the value system of checks and balances against the young mind did not mean anything to me anymore.

Judd: I can sense that spirit in your work. I noticed it when you performed for George Bush at the White House Correspondents' Dinner in 2006, that level of confidence and not caring. I don't think many people have that. I watched Leno do it once and he looked exhausted and nervous, and he had a rough set. Actually, what made me laugh the most is that he had to sit next to the first lady for like two hours before he had to do his set, and it was fun to watch them run out of things to talk about.

Stephen: I sat next to Helen Thomas. And she said, "So, are you going to do all of your jokes?"

Judd: (Laughs) Stephen: And she goes, "How did you like the party beforehand?" Because there's this big party beforehand, with the president, a few cabinet members, heads of news organizations, and maybe the Super Bowl quarterback, you know.

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: And my mom, who loved the president, was there, with my brothers and sister. And Helen Thomas says, "Did you like the party?" I say, "I liked that party, yeah. It was nice. My mom had a good time." And she said, "Now, after that party, are you going to do all of your jokes? Because that's a smart party. There's a lot of people-I've sat next to a lot of comedians who are cowed by that party."

Judd: Oh, wow.

Stephen: Because you're there, you're being chummy with the guy you're going to be making fun of. So I say, "Oh, yeah, I know what that means, but I think I can do it because I'm not doing it, my character is, and my character loves the guy." That actually helped a lot.

Judd: I've always thought there should be a doc.u.mentary about that performance.

Stephen: Well, there's a lot to talk about.

Judd: Looking back on it, after 9/11, everyone was afraid to say the president didn't know what he was doing or was making terrible mistakes. And that felt like the first time that someone said, "Oh, by the way, this guy might not know what the f.u.c.k he's doing at all."

Stephen: I wouldn't say I was the first person to do it, because Jon certainly was doing it on his show.

Judd: But not to his face.

Stephen: Well, you don't get an opportunity to do that very often.

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: You know, there's a woman I get my coffee from every morning. She is not a native to our country, she wasn't born here. And she said to me the week of that dinner, she said, "Stephen, you look so tired, why do you look so tired?" I go, "Well, Anna, I been working late after the show. I'm writing a script to get ready for the Correspondents' Dinner. I'm going to perform for the president." She said, "You perform in front of the president?" I said, "Yeah, I'll be like five feet from him." She goes, "But you're a satirist. You're a critic. You're going to do your jokes right next to him?" And I said, "Yeah." She took my face in her hands and said, "This is a good country."

Judd: Did you have a sense of the importance of the moment in the moment?

Stephen: Oh, no. h.e.l.l no. I knew what it was. I was thrilled to do it, because I knew I'd never be-I knew I'd never get this shot again. I just wanted to get to the next joke and the next joke and the next joke.

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: I did ten minutes on the president and I did ten minutes on the press, too, which people forget. The last ten minutes were on the people in the room. And it was-there was something you were talking about earlier that made me think of the story about the party beforehand. Oh, I know what it was: It was feeling nervous sitting next to the first lady before you go in.

Judd: Right.

Stephen: After Helen Thomas asked me if I was going to do all my jokes, she looks down the table and the president is sitting there with his cards, about to go up and do his bit. And she goes, "He's going over his cards, too."

Judd: (Laughs) Stephen: I said, "Oh, Helen, I can't look at him right now." And she goes, "Why not?" And I said, "Because he can't be a person. He has to be his ideas." He has to be his policies. I feel for another performer, but he has to be the object-he has to represent his policies and the actions of the administrations for these jokes to come out of my mouth. I can't make a joke about a guy worried about his bit at a banquet.

Judd: When you did the routine, were you registering the reaction from him or the first lady?

Stephen: No, no. I know I've said this to some people before, but C-SPAN is not an entertainment company, and they don't mic the room. So, what you didn't know, if you watched at home, was that a lot of material was landing.

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: It just wasn't landing for the people on the dais, or the people in the front row, who were all from the news organizations who need to not p.i.s.s off the people on the dais. But, you know, as a comedian, if a thousand people are laughing, that sounds like a lot of people. That sounds like bacon frying. It's a big crowd. There were three thousand people in that room, so if a thousand of them laughed, it still felt like a great response.

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: So, I did not feel like I was grinding my way through the indifference of a hostile audience. I didn't think I was throwing Molotov c.o.c.ktails. And that wasn't my intention, either. I was there to do jokes, just like I did them on the show. I didn't do anything different there than I did on the show.

Judd: What's fun is that now you'll probably end up talking to the president about it at some point, because it's inevitable he will be a guest on your new show.

Stephen: I don't know about that. Nothing's inevitable. I would like it, though. I wrote him a letter afterwards saying I hope he enjoyed it, it was an honor. Maybe he burned it.

Judd: What is your sense of how Republicans and Democrats feel about your show?

Stephen: I mean, it has been hard to get Republican politicians to come on the show. But I saw this study once many years ago, from Ohio State University, the graduate program there. They did a study of self-identified conservatives and self-identified liberals, and they got a group that self-identified in those categories, and that also both sides identified as fans of the show, and they had them watch the same video, then they said, "What do you think his actual political position is here?" Democrats believed that I was a liberal or liberals believed I was a liberal pretending to be a conservative, and conservatives who enjoyed the show tended to think that I was a conservative pretending to be a liberal pretending to be a conservative.

Judd: (Laughs) Stephen: And I don't really want to correct either side, because there are times I agree with my character. And I really don't want the audience to know when I do. I love that, man. That's the triple gainer. I purposefully jumped over the line a lot at the beginning of the show so people would be confused.

Judd: Is it strange for you, as a comedy person and an improviser, to be tossed into the center of public political life, and to be surrounded by the players- Stephen: That was the point of it. The whole point of it was to do that. Jon Stewart used to say when we were over there, "We're the kids in the back of the cla.s.s shooting spitb.a.l.l.s, you know?"

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: And I wanted to be the spitball. I remember when I ran for president for the first time in South Carolina, people-people who have known me for years and really understand me-would call me up and say, "Listen, you got to help me out here. I am trying to deal with people who are freaking out about this. Is this real or is this a joke?"

Judd: (Laughs) Stephen: And that's the first time I realized what I really liked about this. If it wasn't real, it wouldn't be a joke. Or it wouldn't be a joke I'd want to do.

Judd: Yes.

Stephen: I wanted to do it to see what it was really like, because when I really ran, I really had to deal with federal election law. I really had lawyers up my a.s.s. I really had to find out, like, Wait, I can actually be sponsored by Doritos? Okay, my candidacy can be sponsored by Doritos, but I can't actually talk about Doritos when I talk about my candidacy? Or I can eat Doritos that I bought myself, but I can't eat Doritos that Doritos gave me? Or, like, when I actually formed a super PAC, or sponsored the Olympics, or testified before Congress, or held a rally with Jon on the Mall, or...We always say here that we can make jokes about anything. Where do we point the gun?

Judd: Yeah.

Stephen: The hard part is deciding what's worth shooting.

Judd: How much money did you raise?

Stephen: Over a million dollars. Significantly over.

Judd: Why do you think people gave you money?

Stephen: They wanted to play the game. We established this lovely relations.h.i.+p with our audience where-early on, we called them the Colbert Nation, okay? "I've got to watch where I point this thing, okay? You people are powerful, I'm your leader. We're going to change things. We're going to make the world a better place." I said that on the first night, and I started calling them the Nation. Well, what we didn't realize is our audience was accepting our initiation that they were a character in the show. And that super PAC was the ultimate game they played with us. We went and held rallies. We raised money. We ran commercials. We got in trouble. We said, "You give us the gun and we'll go f.u.c.k s.h.i.+t up. We'll start shooting it in ways that are both legal and unethical."

Judd: (Laughs) Stephen: And our audience enjoyed being in a little gang. That's a fun thing. We all had a place. There was an intimacy that I would never want to lose again. I know that's possible now, and I never want to lose it.

Judd: Were you thinking about winding down the show before the offer to do the talk show came in?

Stephen: Yes. As I said earlier, I was sick of the model. And I realized: If I want a change, I've got to leave.

Judd: What are your thoughts about switching to something that is just transparently your personality-and about, on some level, sincerity?

Stephen: We shall see, Judd Apatow. We shall see.

Judd: Were you a fanatical Letterman fan?

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I am the ur-audience. His show started in '82, the year I started college. Dave was it. Johnny was great, I loved Johnny. I'm the youngest of eleven children, and my elder sisters would wake me up to watch Carson with them because they didn't want to watch it alone. I would be like a toddler watching Carson with them, but Dave-Dave was like us. Dave was stupid. And I loved it. His disrespect was to his own form.

Judd: I was completely obsessed with Letterman, too. When I was in college, I-this is a terrible story. I haven't told it in a long time, but I sent a letter to every single staff member at Letterman asking for an interns.h.i.+p, and someone called me, and I flew to New York, on my own dime, for the interview. When I got there, the woman told me there was no job, it had already been filled. I flew home and wrote her the meanest letter, using words that could end my career right now.

Stephen: Oh my G.o.d. You know, I was offered a Letterman interns.h.i.+p.

Judd: And you didn't take it?

Stephen: My girlfriend my senior year of college-she was coming out to New York and I came with her. She was interviewing for an interns.h.i.+p at Letterman. I don't know how she got it. I didn't know interns.h.i.+ps existed. I didn't know anything like that, didn't know that was an option. I went with her to the interview. It was at 30 Rock, and she went in and she was having her interview and somebody opened the door next to that room and said, "Are you the next guy?" I said, "No, I'm just here with my friend who is in there talking." He goes, "Well, do you want to come talk?" So I went in and we had a nice conversation, and then they called me and said, "You got the interns.h.i.+p," and she didn't get it.