The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 29

M^r M^cHenry conceived that power to be included in the power of war.

M^r Wilson. Pennsylvania exports the produce of Mary^d N. Jersey, Delaware & will by & by when the River Delaware is opened, export for N.

York. In favoring the general power over exports therefore, he opposed the particular interest of his State. He remarked that the power had been attacked by reasoning which could only have held good in case the Gen^l Gov^t had been _compelled_, instead of _authorized_, to lay duties on exports. To deny this power is to take from the Common Gov^t half the regulation of trade. It was his opinion that a power over exports might be more effectual than that over imports in obtaining beneficial treaties of commerce.

M^r Gerry was strenuously opposed to the power over exports. It might be made use of to compel the States to comply with the will of the Gen^l Government, and to grant it any new powers which might be demanded. We have given it more power already than we know how will be exercised. It will enable the Gen^l Gov^t to oppress the States as much as Ireland is oppressed by Great Britain.

M^r Fitzimmons[36] would be ag^{st} a tax on exports to be laid immediately; but was for giving a power of laying the tax when a proper time may call for it. This would certainly be the case when America should become a manufacturing Country. He ill.u.s.trated his argument by the duties in G. Britain on wool &c.

[36] "Mr. Fitzsimons is a Merchant of considerable talents, and speaks very well I am told, in the Legislature of Pennsylvania. He is about 40 years old."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 328.

Col. Mason. If he were for reducing the States to mere corporations as seemed to be the tendency of some arguments, he should be for subjecting their exports as well as imports to a power of general taxation. He went on a principle often advanced & in which he concurred, that "a majority when interested will oppress the minority." This maxim had been verified by our own Legislature (of Virginia). If we compare the States in this point of view the 8 Northern States have an interest different from the five South^n States; and have in one branch of the legislature 36 votes ag^{st} 29. and in the other in the proportion of 8 ag^{st} 5. The Southern States had therefore ground for their suspicions. The case of Exports was not the same with that of imports. The latter were the same throughout the States; the former very different. As to Tobacco other nations do raise it, and are capable of raising it as well as Virg^a &c.

The impolicy of taxing that article had been demonstrated by the experiment of Virginia.

M^r Clymer[37] remarked that every State might reason with regard to its particular productions, in the same manner as the Southern States. The middle States may apprehend an oppression of their wheat flour, provisions &c. and with more reason, as these articles were exposed to a compet.i.tion in foreign markets not incident to Tob^o rice &c. They may apprehend also combinations ag^{st} them between the Eastern & Southern States as much as the latter can apprehend them between the Eastern & middle. He moved as a qualification of the power of taxing Exports that it should be restrained to regulations of trade by inserting after the word "duty" sect 4 art VII the words, "for the purpose of revenue."

[37] "Mr. Clymer is a Lawyer of some abilities;--he is a respectable Man and much esteemed. Mr. Clymer is about 40 years old."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 328.

On question on M^r Clymer's motion

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Madison. In order to require 2/3 of each House to tax exports, as a lesser evil than a total prohibition moved to insert the words "unless by consent of two thirds of the Legislature."

M^r Wilson 2^{ds} and on this question, it pa.s.sed in the Negative.

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no (Col. Mason, M^r Randolph M^r Blair no. Gen^l Was.h.i.+ngton & J. M. ay.) N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on Sect: 4. Art VII. as far as to "no tax sh^l be laid on exports"--it pa.s.sed in the affirmative.

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. (Gen^l W. & J. M. no) N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r L. Martin, proposed to vary the Sect: 4. art VII so as to allow a prohibition or tax on the importation of slaves. 1. as five slaves are to be counted as 3 free men in the apportionment of Representatives; such a clause would leave an encouragement to this trafic. 2. slaves weakened one part of the Union which the other parts were bound to protect; the privilege of importing them was therefore unreasonable. 3.

it was inconsistent with the principles of the revolution and dishonorable to the American character to have such a feature in the Const.i.tution.

M^r Rutlidge did not see how the importation of slaves could be encouraged by this section. He was not apprehensive of insurrections and would readily exempt the other States from the obligation to protect the Southern against them. Religion & humanity had nothing to do with this question. Interest alone is the governing principle with nations. The true question at present is whether the South^n States shall or shall not be parties to the Union. If the Northern States consult their interest, they will not oppose the increase of slaves which will increase the commodities of which they will become the carriers.

M^r Elseworth was for leaving the clause as it stands, let every State import what it pleases. The morality or wisdom of slavery are considerations belonging to the States themselves. What enriches a part enriches the whole, and the States are the best judges of their particular interest. The old confederation had not meddled with this point, and he did not see any greater necessity for bringing it within the policy of the new one.

M^r Pinkney. South Carolina can never receive the plan if it prohibits the slave trade. In every proposed extension of the powers of Congress, that State has expressly & watchfully excepted that of meddling with the importation of negroes. If the States be all left at liberty on this subject, S. Carolina may perhaps by degrees do of herself what is wished, as Virginia & Maryland already have done.

Adjourned.

WEDNESDAY AUGUST 22. IN CONVENTION.

Art VII sect 4. resumed. M^r Sherman was for leaving the clause as it stands. He disapproved of the slave trade; yet as the States were now possessed of the right to import slaves, as the public good did not require it to be taken from them, & as it was expedient to have as few objections as possible to the proposed scheme of Government, he thought it best to leave the matter as we find it. He observed that the abolition of Slavery seemed to be going on in the U. S. & that the good sense of the several States would probably by degrees compleat it. He urged on the Convention the necessity of despatching its business.

Col. Mason. This infernal traffic originated in the avarice of British Merchants. The British Gov^t constantly checked the attempts of Virginia to put a stop to it. The present question concerns not the importing States alone but the whole Union. The evil of having slaves was experienced during the late war. Had slaves been treated as they might have been by the Enemy, they would have proved dangerous instruments in their hands. But their folly dealt by the slaves, as it did by the Tories. He mentioned the dangerous insurrections of the slaves in Greece and Sicily; and the instructions given by Cromwell to the Commissioners sent to Virginia, to arm the servants & slaves, in case other means of obtaining its submission should fail. Maryland & Virginia he said had already prohibited the importation of slaves expressly. N. Carolina had done the same in substance. All this would be in vain, if S. Carolina & Georgia be at liberty to import. The Western people are already calling out for slaves for their new lands, and will fill that Country with slaves if they can be got thro' S. Carolina & Georgia. Slavery discourages arts & manufactures. The poor despise labor when performed by slaves. They prevent the immigration of Whites, who really enrich & strengthen a Country. They produce the most pernicious effect on manners. Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgment of heaven on a Country. As nations can not be rewarded or punished in the next world they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes & effects providence punishes national sins, by national calamities. He lamented that some of our Eastern brethren had from a l.u.s.t of gain embarked in this nefarious traffic. As to the States being in possession of the Right to import, this was the case with many other rights, now to be properly given up. He held it essential in every point of view that the Gen^l Gov^t should have power to prevent the increase of slavery.

M^r Elseworth. As he had never owned a slave could not judge of the effects of slavery on character. He said however that if it was to be considered in a moral light we ought to go farther and free those already in the Country.--As slaves also multiply so fast in Virginia & Maryland that it is cheaper to raise than import them, whilst in the sickly rice swamps foreign supplies are necessary, if we go no farther than is urged, we shall be unjust towards S. Carolina & Georgia. Let us not intermeddle. As population increases, poor laborers will be so plenty as to render slaves useless. Slavery in time will not be a speck in our Country. Provision is already made in Connecticut for abolis.h.i.+ng it. And the abolition has already taken place in Ma.s.sachusetts. As to the danger of insurrections from foreign influence, that will become a motive to kind treatment of the slaves.

M^r Pinkney. If slavery be wrong, it is justified by the example of all the world. He cited the case of Greece Rome & other antient States; the sanction given by France England, Holland & other modern States. In all ages one half of mankind have been slaves. If the S. States were let alone they will probably of themselves stop importations. He w^d himself as a citizen of S. Carolina vote for it. An attempt to take away the right as proposed will produce serious objections to the Const.i.tution which he wished to see adopted.

General Pinkney declared it to be his firm opinion that if himself & all his colleagues were to sign the Const.i.tution & use their personal influence, it would be of no avail towards obtaining the a.s.sent of their Const.i.tuents. S. Carolina & Georgia cannot do without slaves. As to Virginia she will gain by stopping the importations. Her slaves will rise in value, & she has more than she wants. It would be unequal to require S. C. & Georgia to confederate on such unequal terms. He said the Royal a.s.sent before the Revolution had never been refused to S.

Carolina as to Virginia. He contended that the importation of slaves would be for the interest of the whole Union. The more slaves, the more produce to employ the carrying trade; The more consumption also, and the more of this, the more revenue for the common treasury. He admitted it to be reasonable that slaves should be dutied like other imports, but should consider a rejection of the clause as an exclusion of S. Carol^a from the Union.

M^r Baldwin had conceived national objects alone to be before the Convention, not such as like the present were of a local nature. Georgia was decided on this point. That State has always. .h.i.therto supposed a Gen^l Governm^t to be the pursuit of the central States who wished to have a vortex for every thing--that her distance would preclude her from equal advantage--& that she could not prudently purchase it by yielding national powers. From this it might be understood in what light she would view an attempt to abridge one of her favorite prerogatives. If left to herself, she may probably put a stop to the evil. As one ground for this conjecture, he took notice of the sect of ---- which he said was a respectable cla.s.s of people, who carried their ethics beyond the mere _equality of men_, extending their humanity to the claims of the whole animal creation.

M^r Wilson observed that if S. C. & Georgia were themselves disposed to get rid of the importation of slaves in a short time as had been suggested, they would never refuse to Unite because the importation might be prohibited. As the section now stands all articles imported are to be taxed. Slaves alone are exempt. This is in fact a bounty on that article.

M^r Gerry thought we had nothing to do with the conduct of the States as to Slaves, but ought to be careful not to give any sanction to it.

M^r d.i.c.kenson considered it as inadmissible on every principle of honor & safety that the importation of slaves should be authorized to the States by the Const.i.tution. The true question was whether the national happiness would be promoted or impeded by the importation, and this question ought to be left to the National Gov^t not to the States particularly interested. If Eng^d & France permit slavery, slaves are at the same time excluded from both those kingdoms. Greece and Rome were made unhappy by their slaves. He could not believe that the South^n States would refuse to confederate on the account apprehended; especially as the power was not likely to be immediately exercised by the Gen^l Government.

M^r Williamson stated the law of N. Carolina on the subject, to-wit that it did not directly prohibit the importation of slaves. It imposed a duty of 5 on each slave imported from Africa, 10 on each from elsewhere, & 50 on each from a State licensing manumission. He thought the S. States could not be members of the Union if the clause sh^d be rejected, and that it was wrong to force any thing down not absolutely necessary, and which any State must disagree to.

M^r King thought the subject should be considered in a political light only. If two States will not agree to the Const.i.tution as stated on one side, he could affirm with equal belief on the other, that great & equal opposition would be experienced from the other States. He remarked on the exemption of slaves from duty whilst every other import was subjected to it, as an inequality that could not fail to strike the commercial sagacity of the North^n & Middle States.

M^r Langdon was strenuous for giving the power to the Gen^l Gov^t. He c^d not with a good conscience leave it with the States who could then go on with the traffic, without being restrained by the opinions here given that they will themselves cease to import slaves.

Gen^l Pinkney thought himself bound to declare candidly that he did not think S. Carolina would stop her importations of slaves in any short time, but only stop them occasionally as she now does. He moved to commit the clause that slaves might be made liable to an equal tax with other imports which he thought right & w^{ch} w^d remove one difficulty that had been started.

M^r Rutlidge. If the Convention thinks that N. C. S. C. & Georgia will ever agree to the plan, unless their right to import slaves be untouched, the expectation is vain. The people of those States will never be such fools as to give up so important an interest. He was strenuous ag^{st} striking out the section, and seconded the motion of Gen^l Pinkney for a commitment.

M^r Gov^r Morris wished the whole subject to be committed including the clauses relating to taxes on exports & to a navigation act. These things may form a bargain among the Northern & Southern States.

M^r Butler declared that he never would agree to the power of taxing exports.

M^r Sherman said it was better to let the S. States import slaves than to part with them, if they made that a sine qua non. He was opposed to a tax on slaves imported as making the matter worse, because it implied they were _property_. He acknowledged that if the power of prohibiting the importation should be given to the Gen^l Government that it would be exercised. He thought it would be its duty to exercise the power.

M^r Read was for the commitment provided the clause concerning taxes on exports should also be committed.

M^r Sherman observed that that clause had been agreed to & therefore could not be committed.

M^r Randolph was for committing in order that some middle ground might, if possible, be found. He could never agree to the clause as it stands.

He w^d sooner risk the const.i.tution. He dwelt on the dilemma to which the Convention was exposed. By agreeing to the clause, it would revolt the Quakers, the Methodists, and many others in the States having no slaves. On the other hand, two States might be lost to the Union. Let us then, he said, try the chance of a commitment.

On the question for committing the remaining part of Sect. 4 & 5. of Art: 7.

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. abt^t Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no.

Mary^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Pinkney & M^r Langdon moved to commit Sect. 6. as to navigation act by two thirds of each House.