The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 30

M^r Gorham did not see the propriety of it. Is it meant to require a greater proportion of votes? He desired it to be remembered that the Eastern States had no motive to Union but a commercial one. They were able to protect themselves. They were not afraid of external danger, and did not need the aid of the South^n States.

M^r Wilson wished for a commitment in order to reduce the proportion of votes required.

M^r Elseworth was for taking the plan as it is. This widening of opinions has a threatening aspect. If we do not agree on this middle & moderate ground he was afraid we should lose two States, with such others as may be disposed to stand aloof, should fly into a variety of shapes & directions, and most probably into several confederations and not without bloodshed.

On Question for committing 6 Sect. as to navigation act to a member from each State--

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The Committee appointed were M^r Langdon, King, Johnson, Livingston, Clymer, d.i.c.kenson, L. Martin, Madison, Williamson, C. C. Pinkney, & Baldwin.

To this committee were referred also the two clauses above mentioned, of the 4 & 5. Sect: of Art. 7.

M^r Rutlidge from the Committee to whom were referred on the 18 & 20^{th} instant the propositions of M^r Madison & M^r Pinkney made the Report following:[38]

[38] Madison's Note says: ("Here insert Report from Journal of the Convention of the date.") It is found on p. 227, 228, of the Journal and is as above.

"The committee report, that in their opinion the following additions should be made to the report now before the convention, namely,

"At the end of the first clause of the first section of the seventh article add, 'for payment of the debts and necessary expenses of the United States; provided that no law for raising any branch of revenue, except what may be specially appropriated for the payment of interest on debts or loans, shall continue in force for more than ---- years.'

"At the end of the second clause, second section, seventh article, add, 'and with Indians, within the limits of any state, not subject to the laws thereof.'

"At the end of the sixteenth clause of the second section, seventh article, add, 'and to provide, as may become necessary, from time to time, for the well managing and securing the common property and general interests and welfare of the United States in such manner as shall not interfere with the governments of individual states, in matters which respect only their internal police, or for which their individual authority may be competent.'

"At the end of the first section, tenth article, add, 'he shall be of the age of thirty-five years, and a citizen of the United States, and shall have been an inhabitant thereof for twenty-one years.'

"After the second section of the tenth article, insert the following as a third section:

"'The President of the United States shall have a privy council, which shall consist of the president of the senate, the speaker of the house of representatives, the chief justice of the supreme court, and the princ.i.p.al officer in the respective departments of foreign affairs, domestic affairs, war, marine, and finance, as such departments of office shall from time to time be established, whose duty it shall be to advise him in matters respecting the execution of his office, which he shall think proper to lay before them: but their advice shall not conclude him, nor affect his responsibility for the measures which he shall adopt.'

"At the end of the second section of the eleventh article, add, 'the judges of the supreme court shall be triable by the senate, on impeachment by the house of representatives.'

"Between the fourth and fifth lines of the third section of the eleventh article, after the word 'controversies,' insert, 'between the United States and an individual state, or the United States and an individual person.'"

A motion to rescind the order of the House respecting the hours of meeting & adjourning, was negatived:

Ma.s.s: P^a Del. Mar^d ay. N. H. Con: N. J. V^a N. C. S. C.

Geo. no.

M^r Gerry and M^r M^cHenry moved to insert after the 2^d Sect. Art: 7, the clause following, to wit, "The Legislature shall pa.s.s no bill of attainder nor any ex post facto law."[39]

[39] The proceedings on this motion involving the two questions on "attainders and ex post facto laws," are not so fully stated in the printed Journal.--Madison's Note.

M^r Gerry urged the necessity of this prohibition, which he said was greater in the National than the State Legislature, because the number of members in the former being fewer, they were on that account the more to be feared.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought the precaution as to ex post facto laws unnecessary; but essential as to bills of attainder.

M^r Elseworth contended that there was no lawyer, no civilian who would not say that ex post facto laws were void of themselves. It cannot then be necessary to prohibit them.

M^r Wilson was against inserting any thing in the Const.i.tution as to ex post facto laws. It will bring reflections on the Const.i.tution--and proclaim that we are ignorant of the first principles of Legislation, or are const.i.tuting a Government that will be so.

The question being divided, the first part of the motion relating to bills of attainder was agreed to nem contradicente.

On the second part relating to ex post facto laws--

M^r Carrol remarked that experience overruled all other calculations. It had proved that in whatever light they might be viewed by civilians or others, the State Legislatures had pa.s.sed them, and they had taken effect.

M^r Wilson. If these prohibitions in the State Const.i.tutions have no effect, it will be useless to insert them in this Const.i.tution. Besides, both sides will agree to the principle, and will differ as to its application.

M^r Williamson. Such a prohibitory clause is in the Const.i.tution of N.

Carolina, and tho it has been violated, it has done good there & may do good here, because the Judges can take hold of it.

Doc^r Johnson thought the clause unnecessary, and implying an improper suspicion of the National Legislature.

M^r Rutlidge was in favor of the clause.

On the question for inserting the prohibition of ex post facto laws.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay.

Virg^a ay. N. C. div^d. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The report of the committee of 5. made by M^r Rutlidge, was taken up and then postponed that each member might furnish himself with a copy.

The Report of the Committee of Eleven delivered in & entered on the Journal of the 21^{st} inst. was then taken up, and the first clause containing the words "The Legislature of the U. S. _shall have power_ to fulfil the engagements which have been entered into by Congress" being under consideration,

M^r Elseworth argued that they were unnecessary. The U. S. heretofore entered into Engagements by Cong^s who were their Agents. They will hereafter be bound to fulfil them by their new agents.

M^r Randolph thought such a provision necessary: for though the U.

States will be bound, the new Gov^t will have no authority in the case unless it be given to them.

M^r Madison thought it necessary to give the authority in order to prevent misconstruction. He mentioned the attempts made by the Debtors to British subjects to shew that contracts under the old Government, were dissolved by the Revolution which destroyed the political ident.i.ty of the Society.

M^r Gerry thought it essential that some explicit provision should be made on this subject, so that no pretext might remain for getting rid of the public engagements.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved by way of amendment to subst.i.tute--"The Legislature _shall_ discharge the debts & fulfil the engagements of the U. States."

It was moved to vary the amendment by striking out "discharge the debts"

& to insert "liquidate the claims," which being negatived,

The amendment moved by M^r Gov^r Morris was agreed to all the States being in the affirmative.

It was moved & 2^{ded} to strike the following words out of the 2^d clause of the report "and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U. S." Before a question was taken

The House adjourned.