The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 31

THURSDAY IN CONVENTION AUG: 23, 1787

The Report of the Committee of Eleven made Aug: 21. being taken up, and the following clause being under consideration to wit "To make laws for organizing, arming & disciplining the Militia, and for governing such parts of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S. reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed."

M^r Sherman moved to strike out the last member "and authority of training" &c. He thought it unnecessary. The States will have this authority of course if not given up.

M^r Elseworth doubted the propriety of striking out the sentence. The reason a.s.signed applies as well to the other reservation of the appointment to offices. He remarked at the same time that the term discipline was of vast extent and might be so expounded as to include all power on the subject.

M^r King, by way of explanation, said that by _organizing_, the Committee meant, proportioning the officers & men--by _arming_, specifying the kind size & caliber of arms--& by _disciplining_, prescribing the manual exercise evolutions &c.

M^r Sherman withdrew his motion.

M^r Gerry. This power in the U. S. as explained is making the States drill-sergeants. He had as lief let the Citizens of Ma.s.sachusetts be disarmed, as to take the command from the States, and subject them to the Gen^l Legislature. It would be regarded as a system of Despotism.

M^r Madison observed that "_arming_" as explained did not extend to furnis.h.i.+ng arms; nor the term "_disciplining_" to penalties & Courts Martial for enforcing them.

M^r King added to his former explanation that _arming_ meant not only to provide for uniformity of arms, but included the authority to regulate the modes of furnis.h.i.+ng, either by the militia themselves, the State Governments, or the National Treasury; that _laws_ for disciplining, must involve penalties and every thing necessary for enforcing penalties.

M^r Dayton moved to postpone the paragraph, in order to take up the following proposition.

"To establish an uniform & general system of discipline for the Militia of these States, and to make laws for organizing, arming, disciplining & governing _such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S._, reserving to the States respectively the appointment of the officers, and all authority over the militia not herein given to the General Government."

On the question to postpone in favor of this proposition: it pa.s.sed in the Negative.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P. no. Del. no. Mary^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Elseworth & M^r Sherman moved to postpone the 2^d clause in favor of the following

"To establish an uniformity of arms, exercise & organization for the militia, and to provide for the Government of them when called into the service of the U. States."

The object of this proposition was to refer the plan for the Militia to the General Gov^t but to leave the execution of it to the State Gov^{ts}.

Mr. Langdon said he could not understand the jealousy expressed by some Gentlemen. The General & State Gov^{ts} were not enemies to each other, but different inst.i.tutions for the good of the people of America. As one of the people he could say, the National Gov^t is mine, the State Gov^t is mine. In transferring power from one to the other, I only take out of my left hand what it cannot so well use, and put it into my right hand where it can be better used.

M^r Gerry thought it was rather taking out of the right hand & putting it into the left. Will any man say that liberty will be as safe in the hands of eighty or a hundred men taken from the whole continent, as in the hands of two or three hundred taken from a single State.

M^r Dayton was against so absolute a uniformity. In some States there ought to be a greater proportion of cavalry than in others. In some places rifles would be most proper, in others muskets &c.

Gen^l Pinkney preferred the clause reported by the Committee, extending the meaning of it to the case of fines &c.

M^r Madison. The primary object is to secure an effectual discipline of the Militia. This will no more be done if left to the States separately than the requisitions have been hitherto paid by them. The States neglect their Militia now, and the more they are consolidated into one nation, the less each will rely on its own interior provisions for its safety & the less prepare its Militia for that purpose; in like manner as the militia of a State would have been still more neglected than it has been if each county had been independently charged with the care of its Militia. The Discipline of the Militia is evidently a _National_ concern, and ought to be provided for in the _National_ Const.i.tution.

M^r L. Martin was confident that the States would never give up the power over the Militia; and that, if they were to do so, the militia would be less attended to by the Gen^l than by the State Governments.

M^r Randolph asked what danger there Could be that the Militia could be brought into the field and made to commit suicide on themselves. This is a power that cannot from its nature be abused, unless indeed the whole ma.s.s should be corrupted. He was for trammelling the Gen^l Gov^t whenever there was danger, but here there could be none. He urged this as an essential point; observing that the Militia were every where neglected by the State Legislatures, the members of which courted popularity too much to enforce a proper discipline. Leaving the appointment of officers to the States protects the people ag^{st} every apprehension that could produce murmur.

On Question on M^r Elsworth's Motion

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

A motion was then made to recommit the 2^d clause which was negatived.

On the question to agree to the 1^{st} part of the clause, namely

"To make laws for organizing arming & disciplining the Militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S."

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison moved to amend the next part of the clause so as to read "reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, _under the rank of General officers_."

M^r Sherman considered this as absolutely inadmissible. He said that if the people should be so far asleep as to allow the most influential officers of the militia to be appointed by the Gen^l Government, every man of discernment would rouse them by sounding the alarm to them.

M^r Gerry. Let us at once destroy the State Gov^{ts} have an Executive for life or hereditary, and a proper Senate, and then there would be some consistency in giving full powers to the Gen^l Gov^t but as the States are not to be abolished, he wondered at the attempts that were made to give powers inconsistent with their existence. He warned the Convention ag^{st} pus.h.i.+ng the experiment too far. Some people will support a plan of vigorous Government at every risk. Others of a more democratic cast will oppose it with equal determination, and a Civil war may be produced by the conflict.

M^r Madison. As the greatest danger is that of disunion of the States, it is necessary to guard ag^{st} it by sufficient powers to the Common gov^t and as the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies, it is best to prevent them by an effectual provision for a good Militia.

On the Question to agree to M^r Madison's motion

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.[40]

[40] In the printed Journal, Geo: no.--Madison's Note.

On the question to agree to the "reserving to the States the appointment of the officers." It was agreed to nem: contrad:

On the question on the clause "and the authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U. S."--

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question to agree to Art. VII. Sect. 7. as reported it pa.s.sed nem: contrad.

M^r Pinkney urged the necessity of preserving foreign Ministers & other officers of the U. S. independent of external influence and moved to insert, after Art. VII Sect 7. the clause following--"No person holding any office of profit or trust under the U. S. shall without the consent of the Legislature, accept of any present, emolument, office or t.i.tle of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State", which pa.s.sed nem: contrad:

M^r Rutlidge moved to amend Art: VIII to read as follows,

"This Const.i.tution & the laws of the U. S. made in pursuance thereof, and all the Treaties made under the authority of the U.

S. shall be the supreme law of the several States and of their citizens and inhabitants; and the Judges in the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions, any thing in the Const.i.tutions or laws of the several States, to the contrary notwithstanding."

which was agreed to, nem: contrad:

Art: IX being next for consideration,

M^r Gov^r Morris argued ag^{st} the appointment of officers by the Senate. He considered the body as too numerous for the purpose; as subject to cabal; and as devoid of responsibility. If Judges were to be tried by the Senate according to a late report of a Committee it was particularly wrong to let the Senate have the filling of vacancies which its own decrees were to create.

M^r Wilson was of the same opinion & for like reasons.