The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 32

The art. IX. being waved, and Art. VII. Sect. 1. resumed,

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike the following words out of the 18 clause "enforce treaties" as being superfluous, since treaties were to be "laws"--which was agreed to nem: contrad:

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to alter 1^{st} part. of 18. clause Sect. 1. art VII so as to read "to provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions"--which was agreed to nem: contrad:

On the question then to agree to the 18 clause of Sect. 1. Art: 7. as amended it pa.s.sed in the affirmative nem: contrad.

M^r C. Pinkney moved to add as an additional power to be vested in the Legislature of the U. S. "To negative all laws pa.s.sed by the several States interfering in the opinion of the legislature with the general interests and harmony of the Union; provided that two thirds of the members of each House a.s.sent to the same." This principle he observed had formerly been agreed to. He considered the precaution as essentially necessary. The objection drawn from the predominance of the large States had been removed by the equality established in the Senate.[41]

[41] "RICHMOND AUG^t 22. 87.

"DEAR SIR,

"I have still some hope that I shall hear from you of y^e reinstatement of y^e _negative_--as it is certainly y^e only means by which the several Legislatures can be restrained from disturbing y^e order & harmony of y^e whole, & y^e governm^t render'd properly _national_, & _one_. I should suppose y^t some of its former opponents must by this time have seen y^e necessity of advocating it, if they wish to support their own principles."

(James McClurg to Madison--Mad. MSS.)

M^r Broome 2^{ded} the proposition.

M^r Sherman thought it unnecessary; the laws of the General Government being supreme & paramount to the State laws according to the plan, as it now stands.

M^r Madison proposed that it should be committed. He had been from the beginning a friend to the principle; but thought the modification might be made better.

M^r Mason wished to know how the power was to be exercised. Are all laws whatever to be brought up? Is no road nor bridge to be established without the Sanction of the General Legislature? Is this to sit constantly in order to receive & revise the State Laws?--He did not mean by these remarks to condemn the expedient, but he was apprehensive that great objections would lie ag^{st} it.

M^r Williamson thought it unnecessary, having been already decided, a revival of the question was a waste of time.

M^r Wilson considered this as the key-stone wanted to compleat the wide arch of Government we are raising. The power of self-defence had been urged as necessary for the State Governments. It was equally necessary for the General Government. The firmness of Judges is not of itself sufficient. Something further is requisite. It will be better to prevent the pa.s.sage of an improper law, than to declare it void when pa.s.sed.

M^r Rutlidge. If nothing else, this alone would d.a.m.n and ought to d.a.m.n the Const.i.tution. Will any State ever agree to be bound hand & foot in this manner. It is worse than making mere corporations of them whose bye laws would not be subject to this shackle.

M^r Elseworth observed that the power contended for w^d require either that all laws of the State Legislatures should previously to their taking effect be transmitted to the Gen^l Legislature, or be repealable by the Latter; or that the State Executives should be appointed by the Gen^l Government, and have a controul over the State laws. If the last was meditated let it be declared.

M^r Pinkney declared that he thought the State Executives ought to be so appointed with such a controul, & that it would be so provided if another Convention should take place.

M^r Govern^r Morris did not see the utility or practicability of the proposition of M^r Pinkney, but wished it to be referred to the consideration of a Committee.

M^r Langdon was in favor of the proposition. He considered it as resolvable into the question whether the extent of the National Const.i.tution was to be judged of by the Gen^l or the State Governments.

On the question for commitment, it pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Pinkney then withdrew his proposition.

The 1^{st} sect. of Art: VII being so amended as to read "The Legislature _shall_ fulfil the engagements and discharge the debts of the U. S. & shall have the power to lay & collect taxes duties imposts & excises," was agreed to.

M^r Butler expressed his dissatisfaction lest it should compel payment as well to the Blood-suckers who had speculated on the distresses of others, as to those who had fought & bled for their country. He would be ready he said to-morrow to vote for a discrimination between those cla.s.ses of people, and gave notice that he should move for a reconsideration.

Art IX Sect. 1. being resumed, to wit "The Senate of the U. S. shall have power to make treaties, and to appoint Amba.s.sadors, and Judges of the Supreme Court."

M^r Madison observed that the Senate represented the States alone, and that for this as well as other obvious reasons it was proper that the President should be an agent in Treaties.

M^r Gov^r Morris did not know that he should agree to refer the making of Treaties to the Senate at all, but for the present w^d move to add, as an amendment to the section after "Treaties"--"but no Treaty shall be binding on the U. S. which is not ratified by a law."

M^r Madison suggested the inconvenience of requiring a legal _ratification_ of treaties of alliance for the purposes of war &c &c."

M^r Ghorum. Many other disadvantages must be experienced if treaties of peace & all negotiations are to be previously ratified--and if not previously, the Ministers would be at a loss how to proceed. What would be the case in G. Britain if the King were to proceed in this manner.

American Ministers must go abroad not instructed by the same Authority (as will be the case with other Ministers) which is to ratify their proceedings.

M^r Gov^r Morris. As to treaties of alliance, they will oblige foreign powers to send their ministers here the very thing we should wish for.

Such treaties could not be otherwise made, if his amendment sh^d succeed. In general he was not solicitious to multiply & facilitate Treaties. He wished none to be made with G. Britain, till she should be at war. Then a good bargain might be made with her. So with other foreign powers. The more difficulty in making treaties, the more value will be set on them.

M^r Wilson. In the most important Treaties, the King of G. Britain being obliged to resort to Parliament for the execution of them, is under the same fetters as the amendment of M^r Morris' will impose on the Senate.

It was refused yesterday to permit even the Legislature to lay duties on exports. Under the clause without the amendment, the Senate alone can make a Treaty, requiring all the Rice of S. Carolina to be sent to some one particular port.

M^r d.i.c.kinson concurred in the amendment, as most safe and proper, tho'

he was sensible it was unfavorable to the little States, w^{ch} would otherwise have an _equal_ share in making Treaties.

Doc^r Johnson thought there was something of solecism in saying that the acts of a minister with plenipotentiary powers from one Body, should depend for ratification on another Body. The Example of the King of G.

B. was not parallel. Full & compleat power was vested in him. If the Parliament should fail to provide the necessary means of execution, the Treaty would be violated.

M^r Ghorum in answer to M^r Gov^r Morris, said that negotiations on the spot were not to be desired by us, especially if the whole Legislature is to have any thing to do with Treaties. It will be generally influenced by two or three men, who will be corrupted by the Amba.s.sadors here. In such a Government as ours, it is necessary to guard against the Government itself being seduced.

M^r Randolph observing that almost every Speaker had made objections to the clause as it stood, moved in order to a further consideration of the subject, that the motion of M^r Gov^r Morris should be postponed, and on this question It was lost the States being equally divided.

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. ay. Pen^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On M^r Gov^r Morris motion

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. div^d. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The several clauses of Sect: 1. Art IX, were then separately postponed after inserting "and other public ministers" next after "amba.s.sadors."

M^r Madison hinted for consideration, whether a distinction might not be made between different sorts of Treaties--allowing the President & Senate to make Treaties eventual and of alliance for limited terms--and requiring the concurrence of the whole Legislature in other Treaties.

The 1^{st} Sect Art IX. was finally referred nem: con: to the committee of Five, and the House then

Adjourned.

FRIDAY AUGUST 24. 1787. IN CONVENTION