Carrier_ A Guided Tour Of An Aircraft Carrier Part 2

Admiral Johnson: I had about a thousand hours in the Crusader. I did two combat cruises to Vietnam in VF-191 aboard the USS I had about a thousand hours in the Crusader. I did two combat cruises to Vietnam in VF-191 aboard the USS Oriskany Oriskany [CVA-34], in 1970 and 1972. As I recall, we went out for a long cruise, came back for a short time, and then did an even longer cruise. In all that time, I only had one backseat ride in a Phantom. I think I may be one of the few naval aviators of my generation who has never flown an F-4. From the Crusader I went straight into the F-14 Tomcat. [CVA-34], in 1970 and 1972. As I recall, we went out for a long cruise, came back for a short time, and then did an even longer cruise. In all that time, I only had one backseat ride in a Phantom. I think I may be one of the few naval aviators of my generation who has never flown an F-4. From the Crusader I went straight into the F-14 Tomcat.

Tom Clancy: From your record, it looks like you spent the majority of your career in the Tomcat community. From your record, it looks like you spent the majority of your career in the Tomcat community.

Admiral Johnson: That's right. I did my department head tour and my squadron command tour in Tomcats. However, when I went to become an air wing commander, I tried to fly most of the air wing airplanes. The planes I flew back then included the A-7 Corsair, which is like a stubby-nosed cousin to the F-8 without an afterburner. I also flew the A-6 Intruder. Later, on my second CAG [Commander, Air Group-the traditional nickname for an Air Wing Commander dating back to the beginnings of carrier aviation], on my battle group command tour, I wound up flying the F/A-18 Hornet. I still remember flying the F-8, though. Your first jet a.s.signment is like your first love. It's where everything is defined for you. That's right. I did my department head tour and my squadron command tour in Tomcats. However, when I went to become an air wing commander, I tried to fly most of the air wing airplanes. The planes I flew back then included the A-7 Corsair, which is like a stubby-nosed cousin to the F-8 without an afterburner. I also flew the A-6 Intruder. Later, on my second CAG [Commander, Air Group-the traditional nickname for an Air Wing Commander dating back to the beginnings of carrier aviation], on my battle group command tour, I wound up flying the F/A-18 Hornet. I still remember flying the F-8, though. Your first jet a.s.signment is like your first love. It's where everything is defined for you.

Tom Clancy: Following your time in F-8's, you seem to have spent most of your time in the East Coast units. Is that correct? Following your time in F-8's, you seem to have spent most of your time in the East Coast units. Is that correct?

Admiral Johnson: It's correct, but it really wasn't a conscious decision on my part. I guess it just worked out that way. Initially, when I learned to fly the Tomcat, I headed back out to the West Coast and went through the F-14 RAG [Replacement Air Group], VF-124. Then I was moved back to the East Coast, where I have pretty much stayed ever since. It's correct, but it really wasn't a conscious decision on my part. I guess it just worked out that way. Initially, when I learned to fly the Tomcat, I headed back out to the West Coast and went through the F-14 RAG [Replacement Air Group], VF-124. Then I was moved back to the East Coast, where I have pretty much stayed ever since.

Tom Clancy: Obviously, you spent an eventful couple of decades with the fleet in the 1970's and 80's. Can you tell us a few of the things that stand out in your mind? Obviously, you spent an eventful couple of decades with the fleet in the 1970's and 80's. Can you tell us a few of the things that stand out in your mind?

Admiral Johnson: The Vietnam experience stands out, of course. The operations against Libya in the 80's were interesting-Operations Prairie Fire and Eldorado Canyon [the bombing of Libya in April 1986]. I was in and out of there several times during that period. I also remember the day that Commander Hank Kleeman and the guys from VF-41 [the Black Aces] "splashed" two Libyan Sukhois back in [August] 1981. I was sitting in flight deck control [on the USS The Vietnam experience stands out, of course. The operations against Libya in the 80's were interesting-Operations Prairie Fire and Eldorado Canyon [the bombing of Libya in April 1986]. I was in and out of there several times during that period. I also remember the day that Commander Hank Kleeman and the guys from VF-41 [the Black Aces] "splashed" two Libyan Sukhois back in [August] 1981. I was sitting in flight deck control [on the USS Nimitz Nimitz [CVN-68], getting ready to man up and recycle one of the combat air patrol [CAP] stations. The plan was to land the first pair of F-14 Tomcats. Then I was going to be part of the second "go" of the day. It was announced over the 1MC [the master public address system on board the s.h.i.+p] that something "big" had just happened. When the two F-14's that had shot down the two Libyan fighter-bombers got back aboard, everyone wanted to look at the planes and see what had happened. [CVN-68], getting ready to man up and recycle one of the combat air patrol [CAP] stations. The plan was to land the first pair of F-14 Tomcats. Then I was going to be part of the second "go" of the day. It was announced over the 1MC [the master public address system on board the s.h.i.+p] that something "big" had just happened. When the two F-14's that had shot down the two Libyan fighter-bombers got back aboard, everyone wanted to look at the planes and see what had happened.

Tom Clancy: You came into this job [as Chief of Naval Operations, or CNO] at a time of great crisis and turmoil for the Navy. Among other issues, Admiral Boorda's death was a great blow to the Navy. What were the important things that you had to do when you arrived? You came into this job [as Chief of Naval Operations, or CNO] at a time of great crisis and turmoil for the Navy. Among other issues, Admiral Boorda's death was a great blow to the Navy. What were the important things that you had to do when you arrived?

Admiral Johnson: It was important to me to make sure, because of Admiral Boorda's reputation as a sailor in the fleet, that the officers and sailors in the fleet knew that things were going to be "O.K." I sent out an "all hands" message to that effect, and spent the next eight or nine months traveling around the world to get the message out to the people in the fleet. It was important to me to make sure, because of Admiral Boorda's reputation as a sailor in the fleet, that the officers and sailors in the fleet knew that things were going to be "O.K." I sent out an "all hands" message to that effect, and spent the next eight or nine months traveling around the world to get the message out to the people in the fleet.

Tom Clancy: As CNO, you seem to have a unique working partners.h.i.+p with Secretary of the Navy John Dalton, and the Commandant of the Marine Corps, General Charles "Chuck" Krulak. Can you tell us about that relations.h.i.+p? As CNO, you seem to have a unique working partners.h.i.+p with Secretary of the Navy John Dalton, and the Commandant of the Marine Corps, General Charles "Chuck" Krulak. Can you tell us about that relations.h.i.+p?

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Admiral Jay Johnson eating a 1997 holiday meal with sailors aboard s.h.i.+p in the Persian Gulf.

OFFICIAL U.S. NAVY PHOTO.

Admiral Johnson: As you know, before I got here, Secretary Dalton made the decision to relocate the Commandant of the Marine Corps and most of his staff from the old Navy Annex up the hill to the E-Ring of the Pentagon. So now Secretary Dalton's office is bracketed by the Commandant's office on one side, and the CNO's on the other. He's got us in stereo! The decision to move the Marine Corps Commandant was a powerful one, in my opinion. The relations.h.i.+p between Secretary Dalton and Chuck Krulak was already in place even before I arrived. When I got here as Vice CNO, and particularly as I made the transition to CNO, both men were very understanding, supportive, and helpful. I could not have asked for a better welcome. As you know, before I got here, Secretary Dalton made the decision to relocate the Commandant of the Marine Corps and most of his staff from the old Navy Annex up the hill to the E-Ring of the Pentagon. So now Secretary Dalton's office is bracketed by the Commandant's office on one side, and the CNO's on the other. He's got us in stereo! The decision to move the Marine Corps Commandant was a powerful one, in my opinion. The relations.h.i.+p between Secretary Dalton and Chuck Krulak was already in place even before I arrived. When I got here as Vice CNO, and particularly as I made the transition to CNO, both men were very understanding, supportive, and helpful. I could not have asked for a better welcome.

Tom Clancy: It sounds like the three of you have forged a special working relations.h.i.+p on this end of the E-Ring corridor. Is that true? It sounds like the three of you have forged a special working relations.h.i.+p on this end of the E-Ring corridor. Is that true?

Admiral Johnson: The short answer is The short answer is yes! yes! These relations.h.i.+ps work very well due to a number of factors. First of all, Chuck Krulak and I are friends. He and I are close personally, as are our wives. That's a good start to a professional relations.h.i.+p, but there's more to it than that. We share some important common goals. For example, we are both making a concerted effort to lead our sailors and marines to work well together in this age of cooperation and coordination between the various branches of the military. I mean, how the h.e.l.l are you going to do that, if the top sailor and marine can't get along? These relations.h.i.+ps work very well due to a number of factors. First of all, Chuck Krulak and I are friends. He and I are close personally, as are our wives. That's a good start to a professional relations.h.i.+p, but there's more to it than that. We share some important common goals. For example, we are both making a concerted effort to lead our sailors and marines to work well together in this age of cooperation and coordination between the various branches of the military. I mean, how the h.e.l.l are you going to do that, if the top sailor and marine can't get along?

The relevance of the sea services, both the Navy and and the Marine Corps, is that we're the forward presence for our country in virtually any military operation. We're there first, and we're out last. It's essential that we coordinate our forces to do the job as well as it can be done. We're proud of our mission, proud of our people, and proud of our ability to do the job together. That's the strength that we give to the country. the Marine Corps, is that we're the forward presence for our country in virtually any military operation. We're there first, and we're out last. It's essential that we coordinate our forces to do the job as well as it can be done. We're proud of our mission, proud of our people, and proud of our ability to do the job together. That's the strength that we give to the country.Now, just because we're trying to work together on our various missions does not mean that the job of coordinating the Navy and the Marine Corps is an easy one, either for Chuck and me, or for the other officers and enlisted soldiers on our staffs. We work with some very challenging issues, and we aren't always able to agree completely on every point we discuss. As in any working relations.h.i.+p, there are occasional conflicts.Admiral Jay Johnson relaxing in his Pentagon office during his interview with the author.JOHN D. GRESHAM[image]

But we're committed to working through them and formulating solutions. The principles that underlie our working partners.h.i.+p and the friends.h.i.+p between Chuck and me girds it all and makes it possible for us to work through those hard decisions. This benefits both services. Both Chuck and I have the support and guidance of Secretary Dalton as well. I think we have a pretty good team.

Tom Clancy: As we all know, it's been a challenging decade for the Navy. In addition to issues like Tailhook and Admiral Boorda's death, there were real problems that had been building for over two decades. You were placed in charge of a Navy whose s.h.i.+ps had been run hard during the Cold War years. Can you tell us a bit about the state of the fleet today? As we all know, it's been a challenging decade for the Navy. In addition to issues like Tailhook and Admiral Boorda's death, there were real problems that had been building for over two decades. You were placed in charge of a Navy whose s.h.i.+ps had been run hard during the Cold War years. Can you tell us a bit about the state of the fleet today?

Admiral Johnson: Despite the many challenges we're had to endure, the Navy has carried on wonderfully, in my view, in terms of reacting to the requirements that have been levied upon it. Our mission as the nation's forward-deployed force means we have to be prepared to respond at all times to any situation in which we are needed. The relevance of that mission will not change as we go into the 21 st century. I believe we are ready. That's what we do, seven days a week, 365 days a year. I think that one of the greatest challenges that we face in the Navy is rea.s.suring the American people of the level of our commitment to the mission to serve and protect them. This is important, because for a lot of people, what we do is sort of "off of the radarscope." Despite the many challenges we're had to endure, the Navy has carried on wonderfully, in my view, in terms of reacting to the requirements that have been levied upon it. Our mission as the nation's forward-deployed force means we have to be prepared to respond at all times to any situation in which we are needed. The relevance of that mission will not change as we go into the 21 st century. I believe we are ready. That's what we do, seven days a week, 365 days a year. I think that one of the greatest challenges that we face in the Navy is rea.s.suring the American people of the level of our commitment to the mission to serve and protect them. This is important, because for a lot of people, what we do is sort of "off of the radarscope."

Tom Clancy: Given what you have just said, how is the fleet bearing up under this extremely high Operations Tempo [Optempo]? Given what you have just said, how is the fleet bearing up under this extremely high Operations Tempo [Optempo]?

Admiral Johnson: That's a question that requires an answer on more than one level. There is no denying that our sailors, by the very nature of their work, spend time away from their homes and families. Some of the things that we are looking at are ways to make sure that we don't overstretch ourselves. That's a question that requires an answer on more than one level. There is no denying that our sailors, by the very nature of their work, spend time away from their homes and families. Some of the things that we are looking at are ways to make sure that we don't overstretch ourselves.

Right now we have a policy that says that s.h.i.+ps will have no more than six months forward-deployed at sea, from portal to portal. We're also maintaining a ratio of two-to-one for time at home port to deployed time, and no more than fifty percent of time out of home port when you are off deployment.We are adhering to that policy, and I am the only one who can waive it for any reason. In fact, whether we are standing by that policy is one of my own measures of whether we are "stretching the rubber band too tight," where people are concerned. So right now, we're OK with that situation. Now, we have had a couple of exceptions to this rule last year because of problems with s.h.i.+p maintenance in a yard that closed down. The result is that in terms of readiness and execution, the fleet is "answering on all bells." I want to make sure as you walk back from looking at deployment issues, that everyone is getting enough training to get ready, but not so much that their home lives suffer. We also want to make sure that the right equipment is available during training, so that the fleet fights with the same gear it trains with.

Tom Clancy: How is retention of personnel holding up? How is retention of personnel holding up?

Admiral Johnson: Retention right now is good, though there are pockets of concern in that situation. If you look, for instance, at pilot retention numbers, the aggregate numbers, they're great. They're not even worth talking about today. There is no problem there. Within that community, though, if you "peel that onion" back a layer, we're beginning to see that we need to pay attention to the attrition rates of some kinds of air crews. Retention right now is good, though there are pockets of concern in that situation. If you look, for instance, at pilot retention numbers, the aggregate numbers, they're great. They're not even worth talking about today. There is no problem there. Within that community, though, if you "peel that onion" back a layer, we're beginning to see that we need to pay attention to the attrition rates of some kinds of air crews.

In my view, these situations are not developing just because the airlines are hiring. The airlines are always always hiring, and will continue to hire. That's a reality that we can't change. But I do think that part of this softness in community retention is based upon the "turnaround" and non-deployed side of a Naval career. hiring, and will continue to hire. That's a reality that we can't change. But I do think that part of this softness in community retention is based upon the "turnaround" and non-deployed side of a Naval career.In particular, we need to make sure that we're not keeping people too far from home for too much time doing temporary kinds of a.s.signments. We need to make sure that we don't have backlogs in aircraft and equipment depot maintenance, so that our crews have enough airplanes to fly during turnarounds and workups. We also have to pay attention to the matter of funding enough flying hours to keep our people sharp. Let's face it, junior officers [JOs] never get enough flight hours. I know that I didn't as a young aviator, and I don't know anyone who did. We've still got some work to do in that area.These "soft" community areas are not just limited to naval aviation. We've got some year groups in the submarine community that we're watching carefully, as well as some in the surface warfare professionals. Overall, though, we're OK. On the enlisted side the numbers are excellent, and most significantly, the high quality of personnel is there.These days, we're having to work very hard to get that quality, and it's a real challenge. The goal of our recruiting is to have ninety-five-percent high school graduates, with sixty-five percent of those recruits in the top mental group in their cla.s.ses. When we achieve that, it's good for the fleet, and we're committed to achieving that.However, the compet.i.tion for that part of the labor market is really intense out there. Given the pressures of a healthy economy, I think that it's going to be more and more of a challenge. The really really good young men and women out there-the ones who are really smart and talented-everybody wants them. Frankly, while I can offer them a lot, there are other folks who can offer them more of things like money. Still, there are wonderful and patriotic young folks who take up the challenge, and we work hard to find them and keep them in the fleet. good young men and women out there-the ones who are really smart and talented-everybody wants them. Frankly, while I can offer them a lot, there are other folks who can offer them more of things like money. Still, there are wonderful and patriotic young folks who take up the challenge, and we work hard to find them and keep them in the fleet.Trust me when I say that the recruiting challenges will not go away. Remember, back in the Cold War we had to bring around 100,000 new recruits a year into the fleet to fill our needs. Today, even in a time of relative peace, we still need between 45,000 and fifty thousand new bsailors every year to keep our force healthy and running.

Tom Clancy: You just mentioned the end of the Cold War. Can you tell us something about the challenges that you and the fleet have faced in light of the end of the East/West conflict? You just mentioned the end of the Cold War. Can you tell us something about the challenges that you and the fleet have faced in light of the end of the East/West conflict?

Admiral Johnson: I think that one of the biggest challenges that the Navy has is to make sure that our nation still has an appreciation for the value of the sea services, especially within the citizenry and the Congress. I think we need to educate the public to understand that while we have a great Navy now, it takes a lot of effort and money to keep it that way. Another challenge the Navy has been faced with in the last few years has been overcoming the public perceptions left by Tailhook. I believe that we've made great strides since then. I think that one of the biggest challenges that the Navy has is to make sure that our nation still has an appreciation for the value of the sea services, especially within the citizenry and the Congress. I think we need to educate the public to understand that while we have a great Navy now, it takes a lot of effort and money to keep it that way. Another challenge the Navy has been faced with in the last few years has been overcoming the public perceptions left by Tailhook. I believe that we've made great strides since then.

Tom Clancy: Do you feel that the challenges that the Navy had to face as a result of Tailhook and other incidents have helped the sea services deal better with the issues of women in the force? Do you feel that the challenges that the Navy had to face as a result of Tailhook and other incidents have helped the sea services deal better with the issues of women in the force?

Admiral Johnson: Yes, I do. Since we were the first of the services forced to confront the gender-related issues that the other military departments face right now, I hope and truly believe that we have learned from those hard experiences and are better for them. We needed to change the ways that we were doing business in many respects, and I think that we have, and I'm proud of that. I believe that we have a much better and stronger force today than we did before Tailhook. Yes, I do. Since we were the first of the services forced to confront the gender-related issues that the other military departments face right now, I hope and truly believe that we have learned from those hard experiences and are better for them. We needed to change the ways that we were doing business in many respects, and I think that we have, and I'm proud of that. I believe that we have a much better and stronger force today than we did before Tailhook.

Tom Clancy: Let's talk a little more about the roles and missions that the Navy is undertaking in the post-Cold War world. For example, with the decline of the Russian fleet, what have you got the submarine force doing? Let's talk a little more about the roles and missions that the Navy is undertaking in the post-Cold War world. For example, with the decline of the Russian fleet, what have you got the submarine force doing?

Admiral Johnson: We actually have some exciting things coming up for the submarine force. The New Attack Submarine [NSSN] program is underway, and We actually have some exciting things coming up for the submarine force. The New Attack Submarine [NSSN] program is underway, and Seawolf Seawolf [SSN-21] has been commissioned. As far as the submarine mission is concerned, it is much more diverse than during the Cold War. Their main mission is still undersea warfare and antisubmarine warfare [ASW]. Today that mission is less predictable than it was during the Cold War, but challenging nonetheless. [SSN-21] has been commissioned. As far as the submarine mission is concerned, it is much more diverse than during the Cold War. Their main mission is still undersea warfare and antisubmarine warfare [ASW]. Today that mission is less predictable than it was during the Cold War, but challenging nonetheless.

The "big water" ASW mission is still a part of our lives, but these days littoral [insh.o.r.e] ASW is an even bigger and emerging piece of that mission. I might add that insh.o.r.e operations bring with them a whole new set of challenges. Our submarine force is today involved in strike warfare, reconnaissance, special operations, and lots of other things. The community is being reshaped to reflect all of these new missions, and remains a valuable and viable part of the fleet. And even though today's Russian submarine force is not the Soviet fleet of the Cold War era, I feel strongly that we must maintain sufficient capability to deal with it. With all of that factored in, our force of submarines is still going to shrink. We have around seventy SSNs today, and we'll probably drop to around fifty-five in the next few years.

Tom Clancy: The doctrinal move of the sea services to specialize on the littoral regions has been going on for some time now and the force seems to have adapted well. Can you please tell us your views on how the transition from a "blue water" Navy to an insh.o.r.e focus has gone? The doctrinal move of the sea services to specialize on the littoral regions has been going on for some time now and the force seems to have adapted well. Can you please tell us your views on how the transition from a "blue water" Navy to an insh.o.r.e focus has gone?

Admiral Johnson: The transition has gone extremely well, though the Navy has always concentrated on that mission to some degree. You have to remember that the majority of the world's capitals and much of its population reside close to the sh.o.r.es of the world's oceans. Because of that, the Navy has always been tasked for littoral warfare. We kept the littoral missions at the forefront of our planning and preparation throughout this century. The transition has gone extremely well, though the Navy has always concentrated on that mission to some degree. You have to remember that the majority of the world's capitals and much of its population reside close to the sh.o.r.es of the world's oceans. Because of that, the Navy has always been tasked for littoral warfare. We kept the littoral missions at the forefront of our planning and preparation throughout this century.

During the Cold War years that mission was somewhat overshadowed by open ocean missions. With the demise of the Soviet Union, what we call"blue water" missions have declined in importance somewhat. Overall, I think we're ideally tasked to meet the challenges of the new century with the force that we have today and the force that we're building for tomorrow. This includes systems like the land attack destroyer variant of the SC-21 escort design that we're currently designing.

Tom Clancy: So does this mean that the mission of the U.S. Navy in the 21 st century is going to be like that of the Royal Navy in the 19th century? In other words, showing the flag, keeping the peace, and letting the locals know that we're there? So does this mean that the mission of the U.S. Navy in the 21 st century is going to be like that of the Royal Navy in the 19th century? In other words, showing the flag, keeping the peace, and letting the locals know that we're there?

Admiral Johnson: There's certainly a lot of that in our future plans. I think that the way that we would describe our mission in the Navy is that we plan to shape the environment or battle s.p.a.ce. We will do that through forward presence. I might also add that we will do that while carrying the full spectrum of weapons, sensors, and other tools that we need, so that the national leaders.h.i.+p does not have to wait for the action to be joined. That is critical because, as I like to say, there is no subst.i.tute for being there.

The Navy has to be there and ready to trigger whatever kind of response might be required by a rapidly developing situation. That response might be little, it might be big. In one context we're the enabling force for follow-on units, and in another we're the striking power all by ourselves for whatever might be going on in a particular area. Our mission is always situational. There are times when we'll do port visits and paint schoolhouses. That's a part of our job. But we are also ready to kick somebody's a.s.s if that's required. So to that degree, your Royal Navy a.n.a.logy is quite valid.

Tom Clancy: One major change in how the military is doing business today compared to the past is that, unlike the CNOs of just a decade ago, you don't actually command s.h.i.+ps and planes anymore. Under Goldwater-Nichols, the various branches of the military and their a.s.sets are combined into organization "package" forces for regional commanders in chief [CinCs] to use as required by the National Command Authorities. Under the new system that came into effect in the late 1980's, the world has been divided into regions and warfare specialties, with a joint unified command and a commander in chief [CinC] a.s.signed to each. The CinCs package forces into joint task forces [JTFs], which are the basic working unit of joint warfare. Could you tell us a little about how that process works? One major change in how the military is doing business today compared to the past is that, unlike the CNOs of just a decade ago, you don't actually command s.h.i.+ps and planes anymore. Under Goldwater-Nichols, the various branches of the military and their a.s.sets are combined into organization "package" forces for regional commanders in chief [CinCs] to use as required by the National Command Authorities. Under the new system that came into effect in the late 1980's, the world has been divided into regions and warfare specialties, with a joint unified command and a commander in chief [CinC] a.s.signed to each. The CinCs package forces into joint task forces [JTFs], which are the basic working unit of joint warfare. Could you tell us a little about how that process works?

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Admiral Jay Johnson making a point during his interview with the author.

JOHN D. GRESHAM.

Admiral Johnson: As far as the Navy goes, I'm the "organize, train, and equip guy." I get the forces ready by making sure that the Navy is well staffed, that our personnel know what they're doing, and that the machinery to support them is of the right kind and in good working order. At the appropriate time, I turn over these forces to the warfighting CinCs. While those s.h.i.+ps and aircraft are a.s.signed to numbered fleets and squadrons, we often have to package them in some rather unique ways, depending upon the situation and the requirements. As far as the Navy goes, I'm the "organize, train, and equip guy." I get the forces ready by making sure that the Navy is well staffed, that our personnel know what they're doing, and that the machinery to support them is of the right kind and in good working order. At the appropriate time, I turn over these forces to the warfighting CinCs. While those s.h.i.+ps and aircraft are a.s.signed to numbered fleets and squadrons, we often have to package them in some rather unique ways, depending upon the situation and the requirements.

Tom Clancy: By that do you mean contingencies like Haiti back in 1994? I recall that you stripped two big-deck aircraft carriers of their air wings, and replaced them with a couple of aviation brigades with helicopters and troops from XVIII Airborne Corps. By that do you mean contingencies like Haiti back in 1994? I recall that you stripped two big-deck aircraft carriers of their air wings, and replaced them with a couple of aviation brigades with helicopters and troops from XVIII Airborne Corps.

Admiral Johnson: Well, since I was the Deputy Joint Task Force [JTF] Commander and naval component commander of that operation, let me give you my two cents' worth on how that all worked out. It was really interesting and, I might add, the right thing to do for that situation. I was the commander of the Second Fleet at the time, and was looking at new ways to use carriers. I took some abuse from some of my Naval aviation pals at the time, who said, "Well, there you go, Johnson. You've sold naval aviation down the river. Next thing you know you'll be putting army helicopters on aircraft carriers." Well, since I was the Deputy Joint Task Force [JTF] Commander and naval component commander of that operation, let me give you my two cents' worth on how that all worked out. It was really interesting and, I might add, the right thing to do for that situation. I was the commander of the Second Fleet at the time, and was looking at new ways to use carriers. I took some abuse from some of my Naval aviation pals at the time, who said, "Well, there you go, Johnson. You've sold naval aviation down the river. Next thing you know you'll be putting army helicopters on aircraft carriers."

The truth of the situation is that I was not threatened by that at all. If you look at what the Navy and our joint service partners were asked to do in Haiti, and you put it into the context of that particular place, at that time, against that threat, and that total scenario, what we did was d.a.m.ned near perfect. It really was. Almost as close to perfect as you can get. Now, the next time, in a different place and situation, doing something like that may be the dumbest idea in the world. For Haiti, though, converting the carriers was as "right on" as anyone could have asked.

Tom Clancy: Once the need for the helicopters during Operation Restore Democracy was finished, how long did it take to get the regular air groups back on board and operating normally? Once the need for the helicopters during Operation Restore Democracy was finished, how long did it take to get the regular air groups back on board and operating normally?

Admiral Johnson: Well, let me square you on this whole process. The Well, let me square you on this whole process. The Eisenhower Eisenhower [CVN-69] had the aviation brigade from the 10th Mountain Division, and the [CVN-69] had the aviation brigade from the 10th Mountain Division, and the America America [CV-66] had the folks from the Army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment at Fort Campbell. When we were ready to change back to normal, here's what happened. First the helicopters and their personnel cleared off to the Haitian mainland, and [CV-66] had the folks from the Army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment at Fort Campbell. When we were ready to change back to normal, here's what happened. First the helicopters and their personnel cleared off to the Haitian mainland, and Eisenhower Eisenhower turned away. I was there, and watched this with my own eyes. The carrier battle groups left Port-au-Prince harbor, motored out past the island of Guni, and before they left the operations area, both had "trapped" their Tomcats, their A-6 Intruders, and their E-2C Hawkeye support aircraft. By the time that they headed north, both carriers had fully reconst.i.tuted air groups, and made the transit home mission-ready. It was a great use of carriers, in my view. turned away. I was there, and watched this with my own eyes. The carrier battle groups left Port-au-Prince harbor, motored out past the island of Guni, and before they left the operations area, both had "trapped" their Tomcats, their A-6 Intruders, and their E-2C Hawkeye support aircraft. By the time that they headed north, both carriers had fully reconst.i.tuted air groups, and made the transit home mission-ready. It was a great use of carriers, in my view.

Tom Clancy: So would you say that one of the real challenges of this post-Cold War transition has been trying to adapt the minds and thinking of people in the Navy to new ideas and concepts? Making people say "Why not?" as opposed to "Are you out of your mind?" So would you say that one of the real challenges of this post-Cold War transition has been trying to adapt the minds and thinking of people in the Navy to new ideas and concepts? Making people say "Why not?" as opposed to "Are you out of your mind?"

Admiral Johnson: Absolutely. It's hard to adjust to change. And we're all guilty of resisting it sometimes, as it turns out. I'm as bad as the rest of them, even though I like to think that I'm open-minded. I Absolutely. It's hard to adjust to change. And we're all guilty of resisting it sometimes, as it turns out. I'm as bad as the rest of them, even though I like to think that I'm open-minded. I am am open-minded, until you start messing with one of open-minded, until you start messing with one of my my s.h.i.+ps.... s.h.i.+ps....

Tom Clancy: Could it not be said that your willingness to be "adaptive" with those two carriers may very well help to justify continued aircraft carrier development and procurement? Could it not be said that your willingness to be "adaptive" with those two carriers may very well help to justify continued aircraft carrier development and procurement?